Webcomic Visibility (Why do comics get 0 interaction!?)

Im_moron 2022-10-14 04:25:39 UTC #21

It hurts, but you're right
It's definitely not worth the rush if the quality suffers like that (in addition to a plethora of some things I have to be sure to account for!)

It would be nice to be honest, because its currently kind of discouraging atm to just keep uploading episodes like that.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 04:34:42 UTC #22

I've only really done one reboot, and one redraw of an earlier short chapter actually.
Right now, I'm redrawing one of the older chapters because the jump between that and chapter 2 in just paneling is too drastic.

I don't really like the idea of just starting either a whole new series or just reboot it after working on it for this long. It's a disservice to the few readers I actually have (one of which being a friend who actively consumes my comic and gives lots of feedback).

I'll say I have been starting a side project of just for fun on the side that I might one day bring into my comic too (making music with another music learned friend) and its been fulfilling and keeping drawing fresh when I go back to it.

so ye.

sable40k 2022-10-14 04:46:59 UTC #23

Understandable, and glad you have a side project for some extra juice. I'm working on redrawing some pages myself .

Wish you luck!

Im_moron 2022-10-14 04:58:37 UTC #24

I used to be something I like to call, too humble. I've taken advice from other people because I either didn't have the confidence or I was quick to believe that whatever a person said was the definitive truth of what was the flaw in my work (regardless of said person's actual merits). I've even taken advice from someone and it just blew up in flames.

Hence why I specifically asked Candiecotton for elaboration in the first place

I don't think Candiecotton is a bad artist or doesn't have the experience to back up their words, or that they are ill-intent, but you're absolutely right. It's easier to tear someone apart instead of trying to help them find solutions (I used to be said people who tore into others, that's destructive criticism, not constructive criticism).

Not to say that I shouldn't ignore EVERYONE who says anything remotely bad, sometimes people have important things to say but are pretty bad at expressing it (I'm people too). I'd lean toward taking criticism with wisdom if that makes sense. Even if it's good or bad, it's not effective if I'm not trying to understand it, haha. I just don't have the balls to call people out like that asdfgh, but yeah, you speak truth.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 05:06:21 UTC #25

Whenever I pop back into this thread after work in the morning @N1ghtm4r3, I'll check out as many people's comics in this thread as I can, especially the people who are struggling with the same problem I'm dealing with (yours), because it does kind of suck.

WEBCOMIC HIPSTERS SUPPORT EACH OTHER!!!

(this is in reference to @Spectorium_1's advice of interacting with the community, but also this first and foremost comes from a genuine place. If I can't get reader interaction, I'll be reader interaction. I also mentioned in the post to link your comic if you'd like, so long as you're trying to make a real discussion.)

Im_moron 2022-10-14 05:06:54 UTC #26

Thanks man! Good wishes to you too man!

candiedcotton 2022-10-14 05:08:31 UTC #27

Telling someone to learn anatomy is not bad critique, it's -common- critique.

There is no structure to the bodies, there is a lack of symmetry, there is no consistency between bodies, there is no understanding of three dimensional space. There is no fluidity to movement, the characters are stiff, often appearing to be floating in a void because there are no established environment shots.

When someone suggests the 'basics of anatomy', that is a literal term in art education. The basics. There are dozens upon dozens of free courses online that literally go over the basics.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=proko+anatomy+basics

More on point to topic:

It doesn't matter how stylized something is, if you don't know anatomy it will show in your work. So regardless how many ideas get thrown out there, the lack of understanding of anatomy is going to be a problem. I'm not trying to come off mean or anything like that, but if we don't understand what we need to fix then it's never going to be fixed and you end up stuck in the same cycle for years. Which it seems is the case here.

Learning anatomy, learning motion/gesture, learning how light and shadow work, all of these things are part of the basics and they take a very long time and a lot of work to master. It's something you can't do alone and without some form of resource to learn from (like the various youtube videos above).

I would like for everyone here to succeed. We cannot succeed if we are not honestly told what is wrong and what needs to be fixed.

thepenmonster 2022-10-14 05:24:26 UTC #28

To be tedious about it:

Critique is teaching. If a person won't teach then, as shown by Moron's response, they are not providing anything of use.

What you all gave them was an opinion and advice. None of that was badly intended. That's why it's -common-. But they need more than that if you wanted them to learn and improve.

So teach, teachers. Teach.

candiedcotton 2022-10-14 05:31:12 UTC #29

I'm not a teacher and critique is telling someone what needs to be fixed, not sitting down and going over how to fix it. OP asked why their comic isn't doing well, I gave my thoughts. I wasn't aware I was required to write an essay on the steps needed to fix everything.

However, if it helps, I did take the time to explain visually what I mean.

Perhaps it will help OP to better understand.

OP:

You can still have it extremely stylized but make changes like the below. Consistency in limb thickness, fingers having structure, understanding of lighting, so forth.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 05:54:32 UTC #30

I think I should just drop some of my more recent concept sketches for some characters in my comic who have yet to be added that only my friends (and D&D players) know about. (I drew these too, my friends told me that this would be cool as frick if these were the Doomed One(s) artstyle)

This one is a full-body piece because I want to include a drawing with not just any ol legs, but whole bird legs. This drawing is specifically a reference drawing for myself cuz it ends up I draw this guy a lot for a D&D campaign I run.

This one might not be up to standard but I draw abstract action pieces because at least to me, gesture and motion matter a lot more than any detail in anatomy when it comes to action, the anatomy can come after to further support the piece.

Action sequence down here too (two panel piece)

Darth is kind of right about contrast, improper/lazy ink strokes with high s-stabilization (I had just realized my stabilization settings were way too high on my main inking pen after my latest episode, which lead to strokes that feel less natural and precise. Which the way, my sketching/brush pens have almost no stabilization which make things look cleaner in the sketch phase)

And well, me just not cleaning up some lineart too, and the contrast (it has nothing to do with hiding art, I just wanna desaturate the overall colors because generally speaking, I want a gloomy atmosphere, the darkness nobs are just way too high.)

LOOK, sometimes episodes take a 1-2 weeks to a month to draw because it's not very rewarding to me, compared to when I sketch things like these above where I go sicko mode on anatomy, action, and contrast of all things, because my friends/players are both invested and interested in the art I do for some of these cutscenes.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 06:14:06 UTC #31

I think once I get around to redrawing my first chapter, I'm probably gonna go back and revise some of panels in CH3 of my comic (Seeing my pen stabilization being too high in these panels + contrast, and a LOT of advice I got here and learning things now working on CH1).

Especially that panel right there! At least what I'm getting here is just something about how I drew the characters that just doesn't look appealing in that chapter, or that it just looks a little amateurish. I'll admit I did rush these panels and it shows.

For a panel of a guy getting crushed and dying by a bunch of cages, I could do a bit more to really convey the brutality of that. I mean, for a panel like THAT I should have gone hard!

I'll still consider a lot of the feedback you gave there, I wouldn't mind just taking that extra elbow grease to draw individual fingers or proper hand structure if it's important (like that panel if the focus is just a hand, yeah, I can agree with that).

thepenmonster 2022-10-14 06:29:09 UTC #32

critique is telling someone what needs to be fixed

Yes. And then the critique giver does the rest of the job so it matters.

You're not being attacked for offering your opinion and giving some basic advice. But it should be obvious that it was inadequate for what Moron needed.

darthmongoose 2022-10-14 06:34:48 UTC #33

This anatomy looks decent to me. The poses read clearly, there's a sense of volume and depth, and there seems to be a consistent, stylisation that works. The one of the hand/claw is a bit rough, like when you're doing a close-up of a hand or claw as a focal point, you maybe need to give it a little more time or an extra try or two.

Still... overall this figure drawing looks good enough that it wouldn't put somebody off like the levels issue or messiness.

I don't know if CandiedCotton will agree... and I'm not trying to get into an argument here, because I'm sure CC is coming from a place of wanting you to improve and clearly believes very passionately that strong anatomical drawing skill is a foundational element of being a good comic artist.
My personal opinion is that the most important thing for being a good comic artist is clarity. The thing we should all strive towards is the ability for the reader, at a glance, to understand what place, object, action or emotion we were trying to portray. Becoming better at anatomical drawing and perspective to apply that to poses, gestures and expressions in order to better convey what's happening is of course a good general thing a comic artist should always be doing, and putting a little extra care into how we precisely draw a pose, expression or gesture to make sure it reads as intended is important.

So my personal take is to keep working on your anatomy and perspective... but as part of a general quest to be able to clearly draw things that "read as intended". Which honestly is something all of us should be doing all the time!

I'd definitely recommend an excellent book on this subject called "Drawn To Life volume 1" by Walt Stanchfield. If you can get hold of a copy (even by requesting it at your local library) it could be a big help. That and obviously "Making Comics" by Scott McCloud, which actually has a bunch of sections touching on elements of exactly the discussion happening in this thread.

IndigoShirtProd 2022-10-14 12:17:23 UTC #34

I don't think it's up to a critic to teach a person how to improve whatever they are critiquing. They can give them actionable advice, pointing them in the direction of where to go or what to use to get better, but giving them detailed instructions on what to do next is not their job. Should they elaborate on how to improve, sure, but everyone critiques differently.

Critiquing is not only teaching, though it can sometimes be, it's merely giving informed suggestions and opinions. Most critics don't even have the qualifications to teach another person in the first place.

Lastly, because most critiques are suggestions on how to improve, if someone does not want to listen to a critique they've gotten, no matter how accurate it is to their situation, they don't have to take any of it on.

thepenmonster 2022-10-14 12:45:46 UTC #35

A critic is a consumer advocate. They offer advice on you how to spend your entertainment hours and money. It's what Roger Ebert did.

What people have been giving Moron (Jaysus, this handle...) are opinions and advice. This is not critique.

Anyway, if anyone wants to keep trying to turn this into a fight, I dunno, tell it to your moms. I'm not repeating myself anymore.

IndigoShirtProd 2022-10-14 13:04:41 UTC #36

Well, I never implied that critics were not consumer advocates; you're correct, they are. I'm just disagreeing with you on the point that critics are teachers and I also disagree with you on the assertion that critiques are not opinions and advice. Even the most informed and educated critics, especially in something like the arts, are primarily giving their opinion. I'm not trying to argue with you, and if you don't want to respond that's fine, I'm just disagreeing with you.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 19:31:36 UTC #37

On my phone

Yeah, I do feel that my response was a bit on the cheeky side, but I do see where CC is coming from, and I'm gonna keep an open mind about it.

I mean heck, I agree with some of CCs opinions on specific panels too. I guess that's the power of asking questions/elaboration.

I do have making comics on my desk! Guess now is a good time to read it again. I'll def look into Drawn to Life v1 too! Can't hurt to get more books that teach you more about comics tbh.

Im_moron 2022-10-14 20:19:10 UTC #38

IndigoShirtProd:

I don't think it's up to a critic to teach a person how to improve whatever they are critiquing. They can give them actionable advice, pointing them in the direction of where to go or what to use to get better, but giving them detailed instructions on what to do next is not their job. Should they elaborate on how to improve, sure, but everyone critiques differently.

Critiquing is not only teaching, though it can sometimes be, it's merely giving informed suggestions and opinions. Most critics don't even have the qualifications to teach another person in the first place.

Lastly, because most critiques are suggestions on how to improve, if someone does not want to listen to a critique they've gotten, no matter how accurate it is to their situation, they don't have to take any of it on.

It's a tiny bit off topic, but I'll give it a shoot.

I'll be completely honest, I think anyone's honest feedback has some merits to it, regardless of if it's "good" or "bad" criticism. It certainly is REALLY nice to offer suggestions or advice if you can as a critic, but I personally don't think it's the definitive trait of good criticism. I think good criticism is just being able to clearly communicate your opinions on what you like and don't like about a piece. That and finding a good balance between being respectful, supportive and being honest if the person really needs to hear it (some people want to hear the cold truth like me, some people really can't handle tough love and it's REALLY not a good idea to aim for their ego either, because that could just cause the person to lose confidence and just give up.)

That said, I think the point of taking feedback as an artist is to just be a really good listener, hearing multiple sources of feedback, and at least for my personal opinion, just trusting your gut instinct and taking risks if you really believe something could work or be interesting. I mean, there must be something that one finds deeply interesting to make them wanna spend hours to write a story or draw it and post it online with the risk of ridicule. Why would you take feedback that tells you to go against something you know is interesting, EVEN if it technically does have good reasoning behind it? (Ex: Stan Lee's publisher saying that no one thinks teenagers can be superheroes, superheroes can't concern themselves with petty personal problems and people HATE spiders, no way this "spiderman" can be a banger.)

I can't expect everyone to be perfect at communicating their thoughts, I also can't expect to please everyone either, but I think it would be irresponsible for me to not at least hear people at all. Like that's why Cherry picking is bad, not because you're picking feedback that you like (sometimes certain feedback is really not helpful), but it's specifically because you're not listening to any negative feedback.

Inversely, I think it's completely valid for the CRITIC to not expect everyone to take their feedback either, no one is really at fault here. Ideally the critic gives well communicated feedback and or the artist/writer listens and also communicates back with the critic too and both of them can come up with a good direction to move forward (critics can come up with BETTER feedback once they hear context behind certain decisions by the artist).

I've had trusted critics with a good reputation I've paid for tell me that I shouldn't listen to all their advice despite their experience (because I was too much of a people pleaser, and he had basically told me that I can't please everyone), and I've had the best criticism from someone who basically just said "this looks weird" and they don't need a masters degree in art to say that. Sometimes I feel weird about a drawing but I'm not sure if it's just my inner critic being illogical until someone else points it out too.

Finally, sometimes people just can't think of a solution, that's okay. Some drawings just come out weird and you have to pick between just moving forward or going back to redo it.

So ye.

darthmongoose 2022-10-15 08:41:12 UTC #39

To give the perspective of a critic, and to bring the conversation back to the thread title to some extent...

There's a consistent issue on Tapas communities (the forums, discord, other unofficial discords...) of people frustrated about their work's performance and stubbornly believing that the reason is literally anything but their own writing, drawing or presentation. They'll blame it on their genre being wrong, but refuse to target other platforms or make changes to appeal more to the audience here, they'll ask for tips on promotion even though they're already promoting widely and just as much as anyone else, they'll blame it on Tapas choosing not to feature them, but make no suggested changes that would make the staff more likely to do so... and then other people with the same mindset will jump into the conversation to agree; "yeah, success on Tapas is mostly about luck", "Oh yeah, if you don't draw manga style BL it's impossible".

It's not only completely unhelpful to the person because there are actually plenty of things most people with an underperforming comic on Tapas could do to fix the issue in most cases... but it's also kind of insulting to those of us who have got higher sub counts or contracts or have been featured, because it perpetuates an idea that we're just lucky, when the truth is, we usually work hard and go the extra mile on attention to detail in our art, storytelling and presentation.

So even though yeah, it's frustrating that CandiedCotton and I disagree on what the core issue is with this comic, I know that we're both coming from the same place here, and it's a place of irritation that somebody isn't coming anywhere close to matching our level of effort, and then brings up the idea that maybe it's just bad luck. I'm fairly sure CC and I probably feel pretty much the same way about this, and it's "...seriously?"

For me, it's "...Seriously? I spent days agonising over what font to use and even my line spacing and did test runs sending the pages to view on my phone to make sure they were readable, and sometimes I do multiple thumbnails for any given panel or page to make sure what's happening is clear, and I ran through a bunch of style and colour tests before even making my first page... and the person making this comic that's literally unintelligible because it's so dark and the panels frequently don't depict what's happening so much as allude to it in an abstract way thinks maybe I get more attention because of luck!?"

And I imagine for CC, it's a similar feeling, but about the sloppy, rushed anatomy, because if you look at CC's comics... yes, there is a lot of effort being put into the anatomy and making it look good, trying to make sure the figures have depth and realistic musculature etc. And it's also very obviously an area Candied has been working super-hard on improving between "The Silence" and "Life and Death" (with good results! ). I think given how much work has been put in, it's easy to sympathise with feeling kind of pissed off to see it dismissed as "maybe success is all just luck" .

Because it needs to be said here: The people giving advice in this thread aren't just critics. We're creators who have had more success at doing the thing you're trying to do and struggling to find the success you want at. We're not doing critique to let buyers make an informed choice about what webcomic to read, we're more doing two things:
1. Help you achieve your goal by giving you realistic, actionable advice so you can benefit from our experience, past mistakes and shared knowledge base.
2. Dispel an annoyingly pervasive myth that success on Tapas is based primarily in luck (it's not. It's largely polished presentation that sells an entertaining sounding concept and having a series that makes a strong first impression) that insults the hard work we put in every week (and usually a lot of planning work beforehand. I spent months on Errant before a single page went up).

In pretty much every case where a work underperforms on Tapas, there's a reason, and people who will happily help you get to the bottom of it if you just ask... which OP has, and that's awesome.

candiedcotton 2022-10-15 08:52:05 UTC #40

Really appreciate this and I totally agree with everything you've said.

I just wasn't sure how to word a response at this point without it coming off offensive to people and providing nothing useful for OP, which is the end game, of course. I realize I'm not very good at wording things in a sensitive way and while I do try and mean the best, communication is just something I struggle with.