Well-intentioned but unhelpful criticism

[JigokuNeko]

All criticism is helpful in that it gives a fascinating glimpse into the reader's mind. It's amusing to see what sets people off (in good or bad ways). I am sometimes mystified by some of the comments but ultimately I appreciate people telling me what they think. Most of the time--even if it is negative--it affirms my choices.

Aside from the statistical side though, there are times when I will go into a debate with the person who commented:
1)when it's obvious they wanted the characters/story to go in the opposite direction and are insistent on it. I just succinctly explain that is not my vision, those are my choices and in the end that is what makes me happy as a creator to do. My goal is for the readers to have fun but I do not owe anyone a personalized story. This doesn't make me angry or anything but it's sometimes good to be firm.

2) when they misunderstand my beliefs upon an issue that I feel strongly about. I do think the story speaks for itself but there are points that might be obvious to me while some readers might interpret them differently. If it's something I absolutely do not agree with I will speak up (at some length, which is rare with me) because I do not want people to misunderstand my intentions.

[getsuart]

As I said one day, the people who are "well-intentioned" but ended to have unhelpful criticism were always somehow agressive and treat me like trash (BUT they think they are well intended). You know, the type who's going to tell you you're a pathetic bullsh*t and you should more focus on x ou y things.
I sometimes try to go with the C solution, but they don't listen: only their point of view count, you have to listen and don't try to communicate.

So I often so with the A. It's as simple as this. I thank them, still try to use what they said and move on.

[ToonDoctor]

I've often being on the defensive which I know is not recommended. My comic is formatted like a classic comic strip with the logo in the top panel. Many have argue that this was odd and so on. What they really do is show their lack of knowledge about comics.If they knew comics' history, they would know exactly what I'm doing!

My writing has been criticized because I don't use decompressed storytelling. Again, I rely on other forms of comic storytelling but unfamiliarity with what I'm doing usually lands me a comment that I don't know how to plot and write, or understand pacing... It's annoying because it seems like many of the critics think that there is only one way of telling a story. Making the reader discover things through osmosis as opposed to telling them everything that they need to know is no longer fashionable.

Now, I've chosen D) Don't respond at all!

[keii4ii]

I cover many angles. maybe you did read everything, but only one stood out for you.

Yes, I did indeed everything. That one stood out for me because when you mentioned the conversation aspect, 1) you didn't even consider it a critique (why is a focused critique not a possibility?), and 2) the majority of the lengthy post (nothing wrong with lengthy posts, BTW) was about "don't defend/justify" while my initial post clearly disagreed with getting defensive. Why go in depth to explain something that we both understand and agree on?

It's not that I disagree with what you said (maybe except my definition of a critique possibly being broader). It's just that you're preaching to the choir here. 8D

As I said one day, the people who are "well-intentioned" but ended to have unhelpful criticism were always somehow agressive and treat me like trash (BUT they think they are well intended).

I don't think you can call that well intentioned at all, no matter what they think... Abusive people often think they're well intentioned. Doesn't make them actually well intentioned.

All criticism is helpful in that it gives a fascinating glimpse into the reader's mind.

Fully agreed with this. Well, possibly except the fascinating part. The thing is that even if all a criticism does is affirming that the critic is not your intended demographic, that can totally be a useful information.

I wouldn't want them to think that I was dismissing their suggestion without proper consideration, so I'd rather they know whether or not I'm going to use it and why.

My sentiments exactly. I think I'll try my best to use that approach.

It's annoying because it seems like many of the critics think that there is only one way of telling a story.

Well, as @JigokuNeko said, it doesn't make their criticisms invalid. If you have no interest in doing a decompressed version of your comic, and the critics criticize your comic for not being decompressed, that gives you one useful information: those critics are not your intended demographic. Your demographic is those who enjoy compressed comics.

[ToonDoctor]

You are right about that! What I should add is that I do pay close attention to the criticism of viewers who do understand the classic comic strip and what I try to achieve. Their criticism goes beyond me having to justify the basic mechanics of my work. They know where I'm coming from and thus they can better judge my work. This criticism, I have found was more helpful and valuable. As you would say, they were from the right demograhic!

[Exeivier]

"just thank them and move on."

that's exactly what one should do, also i really don't think "unhelpful crtiticism" exists, if someone tells you something that hurts you and makes you abandon your art/writting/etc. it's not really that bad critic who made you surrender, but yourself

at the end of the day is more about the artist's ego and capacity to spot his own field of improvement. So it's not that simple and it can vary a lot from person to person.

[keii4ii]

that's exactly what one should do

If someone did that to me after I gave them a critique, I would feel my input was devalued. So I disagree with that.
This isn't about how to deal with harsh criticism; it's about criticism that's irrelevant to your goals. While even that can be helpful (i.e. it indicates that you failed to make your goal clear), it's "unhelpful" in the sense that you shouldn't apply their suggestion.

[jmhenry]

I had someone give me critique when I didn't even ask for it, everything from my drawing style to how I can improve.

Uh oh...
I remember doing a critique of your comic a while ago, and I was just following the rules of that thread... I might be mistaken, but I hope my critique wasn't as horrible as this sounds... ^^;

[Exeivier]

I apologize. i thought it was "what to do in the case of a hostile- harsh criticism" (at least i read it as that) buuuut in the case of what you mention of course you're right, if someone dedicates time from his/her life to tell you something about your work the very least thing one should do is show the same attention and reply accordingly. (it would be a thing of manners) last thing i would like to do is being disrespectful to someone that takes a look at my work.

[keii4ii]

i thought it was "what to do in the case of a hostile- harsh criticism" (at least i read it as that)

This thread is so meta. XD It's a thread about how to respond to comments that are irrelevant to what you're trying to do, and it's generating replies that contain such comments (irrelevant to what the thread is about). Maybe I should edit the first post later to clarify things a bit...

[Zanreo]

Yeah, I feel like this about some of the critique I get from friends. While I try to listen to critique and see what they mean, sometimes I just plain disagree (in a "different opinions" way) and am just not "feeling" their suggestion at all, thinking it would make it worse or not to my taste. While I want my comic to be the best, in the end it's gonna be the comic I want to make.

If it's someone I know, I'll probably discuss it with them and why I did this instead of something like that, or why I prefer doing it this way, even if they might not agree. If I don't know them (signing up for a critique thread, getting comments out of nowhere) I usually just thank them and move on unless there's something I really would like to discuss/clarify.

[windikite]

nono it was on my stream, where I you know stream hehe. You had valid criticism and I took it to heart as I always do, especially since it was a lot of things I had a feeling about already.

[Kamikaze]

I think option C really depends on the people in the conversation. Some people see ANY push-back, not matter how nicely stated, as the artist getting defensive. Meanwhile the artist may just be trying to get to the bottom of what the critiquer is trying to communicate. This happens all the time in professional and amateur settings. Arbitrary words like 'pop' and 'focus' and 'that's the right ball park' are thrown around with out ever pointing our specifics. Artists NEED specifics, and when we get frustrated trying to figure out what part of 'the ball park' the other person is looking for suddenly the artist is 'getting defensive'. Then the critiquer gets defensive because they feel the artist is being combative.

We actually went through this 'well intentioned but totally unhelpful' kind of crit with an old contact at a convention today.

They asked what I was up to since I saw them last, and I showed them our comic, Kamikaze! I hand over my phone to show them the comic and they immediately say the colors look muddy.
"Oh, okay. So like everythings too close to a single color?"
"Oh no, the color pallet is beautiful! It's just muddy.".
"Like blurry?"
"No..."
"Okay. So how would you suggest I fix that?"
"Just make it less muddy. Make things POP more!"
"Add highlights?"
"No."

I try to suss out what this person is trying to get at, and I'm just lost. They keep using unspecific words, and as the conversation goes on, I can tell they're struggling to communicate the idea. The problem is they never managed to tell me exactly what they meant by muddy. I tried digging for it, offering suggestions (more highlights, less shadows, more/less texture), but none of those were right. One minute muddy meant flat, another minute it meant there's not enough shading, and then it was too much shading. Then it went from not enough saturation to too much saturation. The whole critique was a mess, and I while I understand they wanted to help, they just confused the hell out of me. By the end I just said, "I'll keep that idea in mind," and changed the subject.

I don't think it's impossible for two people to have a type C critique like you suggest @keii4ii but I do think there has to be a clear understanding of what the artist is trying to do, and what the critiquer is trying to convey. It's an exercise in frustration when an anatomical artist tells a rubberhose style cartoonist that they need to work on their anatomy. That's literally what rubberhose styling is thumbing its nose at.

Ultimately I think both parties in a type C critique have to come to an agreement that they understand :
A. what the artists goals are
B. are willing to back up their ideas with specific items
and
C. focus on what makes the artist goals realized

[Alli]

On my non-Tapastic-hosted comic I got a nice little paragraph criticizing my aesthetic choices as if they were mistakes. "I don't like the pastel colors and you could do with more shading," and such. I chose a very specific pallet quite deliberately. I outlined in brown rather than black because I wanted to. I left the colors on the flat side BECAUSE I LIKE HOW THAT LOOKS. The thing that really stung was after this weird string of preferences masquerading as a critique, this person ending things with "and this is coming from someone who doesn't know how to draw humans," as if that's meant to make me feel better or something. I ignored it. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good way to handle it, but I couldn't think of any response that wouldn't sound sarcastic. I thought of pointing the commenter towards a comic that had brighter colors and more shading, one that I personally really enjoy. Even that could come across as sass, so I just let it go.

Some readers 'get it' and others don't. Usually the latter move on silently, like normal people, but some stick around and try to poke holes into everything you've accomplished for reasons we'll never know. Give them a pancake and they'll complain that it's too round and doesn't have the same indentations as the other waffles they've had. You can explain it's not a waffle all day, it doesn't change the fact that they wanted a waffle and how dare you give them anything different.

When it comes to criticizing the actions of a character, that's more understandable. Sometimes it's best to let the full scene play out before bringing attention to your reasons behind it all.

[jmhenry]

Well then whoops on my part! The critique style sounded a lot like mine so I worried a bit ^^;

[windikite]

No problem, I prefer people get worries off their chest.

[apurviance]

There's the "wisdom of crowds" approach. If several people are pointing out issues, there's something I need to work on. But, I also like Neil Gaiman's advice, “Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”

My wife and I are both artists. We don't hold back on critiques, but we're both creators and that's part of the process. Consumers (readers) don't usually have experience in offering constructive criticism. I don't think mixing reader feedback with creator critiques in the same area is a good idea.

[hannahmcgill]

It's rare that I ever get a client or manager able to express meaningful criticism, so I get this all the time. If I don't find a way to curtail it, it turns into endless back-and-forth on a single revision, because the client is nervous and feels in charge of the project. If I don't curtail in exactly the right way, it turns into a personal battle and I can lose my job (or quit, usually things are pretty mutual at that point). Likewise, when posting a public project like a webcomic there's no way to release pent-up annoyance at someone's feedback, because that could harm the comic's reputation.

Having reviewed your comic in another thread (only briefly) I sincerely hope it wasn't any of my suggestions that turned you off and that you'd feel okay messaging me with questions, although I wouldn't want to be conceited enough to think that it was me since I don't think it was. I wasn't able to find anything unpleasant in your comic. I definitely had to think hard about things to suggest, since the style of the thread favored shop talk.

Anyway, it's been very very VERY hard for me to find peers or mentors to push myself past a certain threshold of skill. I'm sure it must be frustrating for you (since you have enviable experience and skill) to be diligently searching for new knowledge and hear unusual or non-applicable responses. : (

[keii4ii]

I sincerely hope it wasn't any of my suggestions that turned you off and that you'd feel okay messaging me with questions

Nooo, it wasn't you at all! It wasn't anyone/anything on Tapastic, in fact. I've received quite a few critiques that were either too vague or way off the direction I want to pursue (as we all have). What prompted this thread was the accumulation of all of those, plus a non-Tapastic discussion where someone said I should just say thanks and move on.

And it's true; the more skilled you get, the harder it becomes to get good critiques, logically. I did luck out recently, though. Got a comment/question from a reader who didn't even think it was a critique, but it was the most helpful critique I've received in a long, long time. Like a shining arrow of light shot RIGHT through the heart of darkness. Gotta keep working on our own, and be thankful for those occasional lucky moments!

[KSlinger]

@keii4ii That's really, really nice. I'm glad they could help you. It's worth wading through months of vague, slightly negative comments to finally reach that person who genuinely loves your work and gets excited about it, and when they actually want to help you and are kind about it it doesn't matter what came before-- their thoughts are all that matter.