What do you think is more important marketing/advertising your artwork or the artwork itself?

AVXP 2019-10-25 03:52:53 UTC #10

Do you want an echo chamber or to hear other people's opinions?
There is no- one without the other.
I don't even think it's about hobbyist versus professional.

It's personal satisfaction versus business-minded goals.

Learning to market as an artist should be a priority right next to the work itself.

Horrible advice. Horrible.
That is an outsider's hobbyist advice - at best.

This site is full of hobbyists and enthusiasts and many, many with professional level work ethics and creative output.
I doubt you will find many with true business-minded thinking...
....at least not many willing to sit here and debate their working business practices.

The steps and (best) advice for selling stuff is no secret.
It's not even complicated. It just runs contrary to most artistic passions and interests.

It's a circle. If you KNOW then you are already doing it and what interest do you have in helping anyone else out- at the expense of forum arguments? And if you don't know or don't agree with a business-mindset, why should anyone care?

This reads like a-pointing-finger-at-hobby-artists who don't focus on selling stuffs (properly).
And if you don't want them to read this thread and learn and share and grow and challenge you - then what's the point?

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 04:01:28 UTC #11

One. I say hobbyist and professional as meaning you either do or don’t want to make a full time income off of art. Hobbyists in this instance don’t really care for it but just drawing for themselves which is completely fine.

Echo chamber? I asked opinions and shared mine that’s all.

As far as my advice being an outsiders advice? Not really been working free lance for 5 years now and I work with two galleries. So I have something to this if you’d want to expand further without the extremely disrespectful and disruptive attitude. If you need proof of me working in the industry I’ll be happy to provide.

That’s my point. Selling in art should NOT run contrary just because it’s a creative field. It makes no sense.

Hobby artists don’t generally sell, maybe here and there for some quick change but full time or even part time? No not really that’s why it’s called a hobby and not a job. Hence the word professional. They can read and reply to this but it’s not directed at them. I’m sorry.

There’s also no reason why I shouldn’t be able to ask about the business side of art either on this site. It’s Tapas you know? An online comic publisher, and a distributor and therefore a site focused on the marketing of art specifically webcomics.

AVXP 2019-10-25 04:15:35 UTC #12

No, I meant the advice for for someone who was going to be an outsider because they intend to do it all by themselves. Not you.

That’s my point. Selling in art should NOT run contrary just because it’s a creative field. It makes no sense.

Unless you consider what an artists is and basically, you are asking them to add a new layer of interest, pursuit and execution to their make up. Saying - learn, and add this OTHER SKILL and wait, develop that at-the-same-time you learn your craft.

It’s Tapas you know? An online comic publisher, I.e a distributor and therefore a site focused on the marketing of art specifically webcomics.

Except you're asking the content providers, not the content sellers.
And you said professionals, now if you said

To those making a living off TAPAS, here's a question....
Do you think.....

Then yeah.
And if all they do is MAKE the comics and TAPAS does all the marketing and promotions....
then how could THEY even respond?

You'd have to get the editorial/solicitation team (or whatever they are called)- that picks up a title to answer.
So the short answer is, you'd be better off learning how to market and promote your title to Tapas or some other publisher and not the general public for self-generated leads and sales.

That was hyperbolic. Self-generated interest is always a positive.
Hobby-level or pro,

Kura 2019-10-25 04:23:54 UTC #13

Because art theft and re-posting is a thing artwork alone isn't enough. You want to at least market enough to be able to attach the art (and hopefully your style) to your name. (this apply even if you are not trying to make money off of your art)

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 04:31:52 UTC #14

Oh it’s good advice in my opinion. By god I wish someone told me when I started to learn how to market my work beyond just the art. I had to learn from my gallerist. But we can differ on that, I’m fine with that.

Yes. Artists on a professional level make a product(art) and sell that product. Artists are salesmen. There should be no disconnect here. Artists show up to galleries to sell their art, artists post their art to social media to sell it as well, the list goes on. Artistry is a passionate and creative driven field dont get me wrong but at the end of the day as a professional artist you market and sell your art in some way shape or form. Telling artists to hone the skill of selling and marketing is not bad advice. Not by a long shot. As far as learning to hone your craft and learn to sell? How do you think many businesses or careers in the freelance category start? You HAVE to market yourself. No way around it. People don’t just knock on your door just because you make a product. I could make the best lemonade possible but if no one knows I make lemonade it’s not going anywhere.

That’s why I said professionals and aspiring professionals in the context of art. We can go into all the semantics and circus flips you’d like. But please just call a spade a spade here. And you can market yourself outside of tapas. Let’s be real a lot of people on here make peanuts on tapas. And for the ones that do make real money well, I’d like those opinions for certain. So whether you’d be better off, ehhh... let’s hear some more opinions.

Yes self generated interest is positive. I don’t understand why you’re jumping down my throat if you’re ending what you said with what my opinion is about. It’s just more beneficial if you actually want a job in the art sector.

Honestly I think it’s best that we leave it here. You’re so up in arms and I’m just in no mood to deal with it. I don’t know why you are, but have a good rest of your night or day.

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 04:33:20 UTC #15

For sure I definitely agree with that. Art theft always finds a way

AVXP 2019-10-25 05:18:36 UTC #16

Artists are salesmen.
No. Artists are artists and salesmen are salesmen.

I had to learn from my gallerist.
That would have been my advice to you. Get someone that already knows how to do it and better yet, does it well and have THEM do it for you- until you (choose to) pick it up over time. That's what I do/did for most things.
I'd ask you then if your business picked up once you put a professional on the job? Probably did.
Once you make professional (level) work, find someone that knows what to do with it.
Until then, what you are doing is NOT marketing or promoting, it is SHARING your work on social media and looking for exposure..
That's not semantics.

I could make the best lemonade possible but if no one knows I make lemonade it’s not going anywhere.
I'd rather team up with the person who already owns a lemonade stand and is happy selling lemonade. That way, I get to do what I want, which is to MAKE LEMONADE, not sit on the side of the road, at a stand.

I said: "If you KNOW then you are already doing it and what interest do you have in helping anyone else out- at the expense of forum arguments?"

I knew we would end up here so I tried to warn us. lol

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 05:27:46 UTC #17

With all due respect my dude you don’t even work in the field.

And FYI I’m a freelance copywriter as well, SO I do already market my own stuff. The only person who came in here guns blazing was you and honestly there was no need for it. You don’t like the topic? Don’t post, or simply express your opinions without being so rude. Thank you. Have a goodnight.

AVXP 2019-10-25 05:43:27 UTC #18

Did hiring a professional push you forward?
Was that a good move?
Would it have better to split your dedication in art to -- art and sales?
Or get your art to a professional level first and then worry about selling it?

Does that difference in approach make THAT much of a difference?
There are the interesting questions.

With all due respect my dude you don’t even work in the field.

What field? Selling art in galleries?

Your thread is about artists I am one.
You're asking about marketing and advertising.
I hired outside people and companies to handle that.

Your post is about selling stuff -
I sold some stuff.
you're asking on a Webcomics-selling website.
I assume you meant comics, not fine art.

I don't see rudeness in my tone.
And I don't see angry posts either or an attack on your person.

But I do admit you are acting like a true artist and taking this very personally.
That's what I enjoy about artists- their passion.

That's also why it's not really worth getting into it over these things.
Sorry if I offended you. That was not my attention.
Have a good night.

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 05:45:22 UTC #19

Dude tbh we could have had a good discussion about the ins and outs of marketing art but you wanted to come at me wrong from the jump. I’m sorry but I’m just in a foul mood now. None of this had to happen and you have good points that we could actually discuss but like I don’t get it dude. What’s your problem? What did I say that was so messed up in your eyes? Just because I used the words hobbyist and professional? It’s silly.

Your whole first post is rude as hell my dude. It’s like you came in here and got pissed this was a topic.

AVXP 2019-10-25 05:59:31 UTC #20

Well maybe you're right and I stepped in wrong. That's quite possible.
I had to re-read what I posted.
Ahh
I did have an early post that was in disagreement.
That must have been it.
My apologies again.

Well, I dunno. I've said my piece on this.
I don't think I have anything else to add.

except. more stuffs...
For years, people have been advising me to outsource all the things that I am not good at or interested in doing.
For me, it was ego. How can I be good at [insert artistic endeavor] and NOT good at marketing/promoting/sales etc?

Once I admitted to myself that I am not the best at everything, I loosened up. lol
I used to write my own publicity and first-contact letters and marketing stuff...
Terrible results.
And then I hired a publicist and learned how badly I was doing it. Another lol.
Eventually, I owned a publication and started getting A TON of those same horrible letters.
It was a lesson from the other side.

Marketing and promotions should be left to professionals.
Sharing and exposure stunts should be left to the artist.

That's my 10 cents on it.

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 06:06:18 UTC #21

Sharing (online I assume) and exposure is marketing. Most artists aren’t gonna be able to hire a company to advertise for them. This is under the context of not even having that ability. Marketing is expensive, but much less expensive if you do so on your own. You don’t have to be the best but learning marketing principles or a job field of marketing to a capable extent works wonders. Art alone isn’t going to get you very far in most cases. And in most cases people don’t have the luxury of hiring an agency or someone to help them.

darthmongoose 2019-10-25 06:13:51 UTC #22

Wow, passions running high in this thread.

Hey, pro illustrator here. Did a stint of about ten years in the business and now I work part time as a creative consultant because full time freelancing as an illustrator gets really exhausting and has no career progression. But anyway, I've done work for the BBC, Nintendo, Screwfix, English Heritage, a bunch of councils and tech events... Basically I've been in the biz.
As far as I have learned from my experience, it's very rare for a successful illustrator to be just good at drawing with zero marketing acumen. It's frustratingly more common to see somebody who is a bit of a hack and not particularly great but really good at marketing themselves... but saying this is good marketing simplifies the issue too much and is really not giving the less skilled "hack" artist credit for how hard they're working.

Being just really good at art isn't necessarily helpful to a person who wants to buy your services for a specific purpose. From the client's perspective, they want:

Somebody who is proven to get jobs done and not vanish on people.
Somebody who is easy to find because their art is put in places where non-artists looking for art will find it.
Somebody who is easy to communicate with and makes them, as a non-artist, feel like their vision is being realised and that they're in confident hands but are being respected, not talked down to.
Somebody who makes decent enough art in a style that's appropriate to the job.
Somebody who is available to start the job when they need the job doing.
Somebody whose prices fit the budget.

So, given all these factors, you can easily see how a person who actually isn't a particularly amazing artist, but rather just draws say, a very simple cartoon style, but who is easy to find because they have a professional looking website with a simple URL, advertise themselves widely on social media and have an active agent, has worked hard to get a reputation for finishing jobs, charges standard industry rates with neat invoices submitted on time, and is very pleasant to talk to and makes the client feel good could absolutely become very professionally successful!
In fact, I would much rather work with the person described above than somebody who is absolutely amazing as an artist, but continually misses deadlines or ghosts on projects, is pretentious and talks down to people, won't take feedback, instead trying to boss the client around about why their creative decisions are right, and isn't open about their charges. And an artist who has no social media presence, no website but like... an outdated artstation profile somewhere... well how am I supposed to even find that person! More than once, I've tried to recommend a friend to a client (because if a friend is clearly way better suited to a job I'm unsuitable for, or I'm unavailable, I always recommend people) only to discover their online presence is an embarrassing shambles and I have to be like "Oh er... okay I know the site looks a bit sketchy, but really, they're really good and professional! I swear!"

When I say that a person can get by being just okay at art. They have to actually still have a polished finish. I've actually seen quite technically capable young or new artists lamenting why a person with inferior anatomical drawing, compositions and perspective etc. is getting work and they aren't. It's usually polish, and it's usually something about their line quality and the inconsistent level of detail throughout the piece makes their pieces look unfinished, or their values are poorly balanced, or the characters are all standing face-on in a really flat looking way.
What I'm saying is... don't underestimate hacks. Hacks may not be the best at drawing, they may not be the most creative with their ideas or their layouts, but they work hard, makes themselves easy to find and understand, and they get the job done, consistently, to a professional level of polish. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are people who consider me a hack!

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 06:23:05 UTC #23

Oh man I love this topic. Gonna bring up my gallerist one last time, my gallerist has worked as a creative director and art director for major businesses and has her Masters in Illustration. Here’s the kicker, she can’t draw to save her life and she still gets work from clients because she’s so professional and knows how to market her artwork effectively.

A lot of people in the art field are obsessed with skill and fundamentals, but usually it isn’t the clients it’s the artists themselves and it holds them back from opportunities because they think they aren’t good enough unless they are the next da Vinci. When all they really needed to do is market better or sell themselves better to a prospective client.

SleepingPoppy 2019-10-25 06:31:33 UTC #24

It seems such a depressing thought that marketing should be more important than the thing being marketed. Unless your job is marketing specifically...

And I'm not the sort that thinks the "starving artist" is noble, or any of that nonesense. Like absolutely, marketing skills are invaluable to an independent artist. That's not just advertisement, but understanding the market, trends, etc. and no shade to any creators who do decide to create stories for market. But ideally I think for most independent creators, it's about making the story you love first, and figuring out how to market it.

Just don't think it's a one size fits all thing.

I also confess a rogue hobbiest has crashed your thread to share this opinion. ((Gif just included for silliness)

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 06:38:33 UTC #25

I just mean insofar as selling your work in some way to make income. Marketing is king over the artwork and skill itself.

I’m not that heartless lol. I have a lot of stories I want to tell with my art but if I don’t know how to market or have the money to market with some company then you gotta go solo and learn on your own. It’s also a lot more lucrative that way.

I apologize from a passion standpoint the production of the art comes first. From a financial standpoint it’s marketing. But this opinion.

lacoticus 2019-10-25 06:44:53 UTC #26

I think two most important factors are advertising and story. Because if you look around there are people who make money with stick figure like drawings. and then there are god tier artist who have failed in comics, even though their art is really incredible.

BloodOgre 2019-10-25 06:48:39 UTC #27

Oh definitely. And not just story, but words attached to the art in general. It’s a bit counter-intuitive because artists are usually taught if not working on comics that the art should speak for itself. And to other artists it does generally, but people who don’t practice art? They are actually less likely to partake or buy art that doesn’t have words or descriptions attached. A reason why I got into copywriting actually.

AVXP 2019-10-25 06:56:27 UTC #28

I like your sentiments, but your scale is off.

The correction would be

"In fact, I would much rather work with the person described above than somebody who is absolutely amazing as an artist, who actually isn't particularly amazing at marketing and promoting themselves."

In other words you went
Art 8 Marketing 10 versus Art 10 marketing 0
That's not so fair, but I like your point.

For some of your other criteria, I'm not so sure. It sounds like you're speaking about a professional that's expanding their clientele, not someone learning art and marketing together or trying to decide where to put their focus.

That person has a track record.
The materials you submit are not public-facing.
You get a portfolio and press kit.
You send contacts links to your previous work, and press and reviews.
Not online galleries or social media and for them to still be unsure after getting all the above - it's about engagement...
You should be in/on other people's social media.
Interaction is key.

But maybe we're speaking about two or three different things.
Are we still talking comics?
lol

Darth_Biomech 2019-10-25 14:08:52 UTC #29

I ask money for my art, because I need the money to buy food and things. If I didn't needed money to buy food and things, or if I would have a stable income independent on what I am doing, I would do art for free, because the purpose of art is not to earn money but to express oneself.
The artwork itself is definitely more important.

Here I tend to disagree intensely. It should be a consensus. Client's wishes are important, but if they are asking to put, say, bright green text on the pink background because they think it will look pretty, it's your duty to explain why this will look horrible and will make the entire piece worse as a result, instead of going "as you wish m'lord" route.