What is worse - a negative stereotype or a positive fetish? Gay trope edition

[Likri]

I think fetishization is a problem, because it makes queer relationships seem inherently sexual, which isn’t true.

I wasn't thinking more in the kink fetish way (may have worded it badly), but like in a fangirl "oh my they are totes gay and therefore cute and sweet and make me warm and fuzzy inside" way. Not inheritaly sexual, but fetishized over your 1 quality.

[joannekwan]

Of the two scenarios, I personally prefer if a good couple dies tragically or don't get together in the end.

Perhaps that's due to my own experiences as I have an acute distaste for fluff and 'lovey-dovey' material, regardless of the characters' genders/sex. I'm also a sucker for bittersweet endings.

Not saying they're objectively bad, but I like to avoid that in the media I consume.

[HGohwell]

Take with a pile of salt because I can't find the source now for the life of me but there was a study I saw that said a lot of these "cishet teenage fangirls" writing and reading BL often this was their first exposure to gay content and how it can be accepted, even if problematic. It also had an interesting part about how many of these girls who considered themselves cishet in their teens later identified as LBGT once they were more aware of themselves and often move onto more mature (in style and plot, not content) stories as they do. (I'm still searching I'll post the link if I can locate it again).

One of the interesting tropes to me that lots of people point out as harmful is the whole straight guy/girl who suddenly falls for this one guy/girl despite never feeling like this before. Now, I can only speak for myself and my group of friends, but this how a lot of people figure things out because of the assumption that you're straight until proven otherwise. The idea that you're straight, and you're sure you are you just haven't found the right person yet, until something clicks. And this doesn't stop just because you've figured it out, of course, with the tons of people who will tell you "you'll change your mind once you find the right person (of the opposite sex)".

[erudenedure]

I meant to touch on this, but I was so wordy in my last post.

I feel like fangirl fetishizing makes queer characters into something they get to consume, like how men objectify women porn stars or lesbian porn tailored to a straight man's gaze. So the character is LGBTQ+ in a way that appeals to the fangirl and, sometimes I feel it's in a way fangirls can project themselves onto the character. (Which is probably why the manly/seme and girly/uke dynamics come into play.)

I don't necessarily think fangirls are bad. But a gay man's opinion would probably be more worthwhile here. I just know, when I was a "yaoi fangirl" in the early 2000s, the way some other fans objectified the characters made me feel uncomfortable.

When the fetishization of queer relationships becomes extreme - like shipping real-life people - then I feel like they're just objectifying queer people.

[Likri]

I can get behind that! I first exposure to the idea of same sex romance was though anime in my early teens, and though I wasn't questioning myself at that time, it still was kind of a "wait, that's an option?". It just didn't cross my mind before, since there wasn't any good or bad representation that I could "get" what exactly they are talking about. I mean sure, now disney's Hades is totally the "gay best friend" in my book of tropes, and he's fab, but then it was "well, that's just how he speaks as a character".

[erudenedure]

Take with a pile of salt because I can't find the source now for the life of me but there was a study I saw that said a lot of these "cishet teenage fangirls" writing and reading BL often this was their first exposure to gay content and how it can be accepted, even if problematic. It also had an interesting part about how many of these girls who considered themselves cishet in their teens later identified as LBGT once they were more aware of themselves and often move onto more mature (in style and plot, not content) stories as they do. (I'm still searching I'll post the link if I can locate it again).

That sounds like my experience and sort of assumed it was the same with some others. (Didn't even think about there being a study about this!)

[HGohwell]

@Likri & @erudenedure This was a lot of my experience as well. Perhaps it's not so much of an issue, but when I first discovered BL in my teens I'd never considered it an option. In those days, I didn't hear much about LGBT movements, it wasn't all over TV, it was written out of dubbed anime (Sailor Uranus and Neptune were "cousins") and there weren't obvious complaints about things not being inclusive, so it had never crossed my mind until I was exposed to BL and realised it was an option. The guy didn't have to be with the flat love interest who was there just to yell his name.

You would be amazed what people have time to study, did you know fish of the same species in different areas are struggling to breed because they communicate in slightly different variations? If you scroll down to the refences section here there's a lot of interesting pieces to read:

Yaoi fandom

[Wumbl]

The way I see it, fujoshi are not inherently a problem at all. A lot of them are LGBT themselves, or support the lGBT community vehemently. Star Trek shippers were a part of pride parades during the 70s and 80s!

The problem is when rabid yaoi fangirls take it too far. It's when they start harassing or discomforting IRL gay couples (like my partner and me) and when they start shipping real people together without their consent. Most fujoshi really do not do this at all. The concept of being a fujoshi was founded in being an LGBT ally really, so when so-called fujo are homophobic or harm LGBT people they become a problem for everybody.

And that's coming from me, a fudanshi :^)

[joannekwan]

Yeah, it's unfortunate how radicals within a group can sully the good the majority stand for. Like TERFs for feminists.

[xabelmind]

I agree with @HGohwell

All this thing about protesting against this or that story because of the representation it means for the community is new.

The LGBT+ community never had as much visibility as it has now, but there's still not enough queer content.

All those stories that go from the positive representation to characters that play the bad guy and unhealthy relationships also happen in cishet stories, but there's so much content there that it balances. It doesn't seem like the unhealthy relationship, or the evil guy represents cishets as bad people with horrible relationships.

This concern about representation will end when queer works have the same level of visibility as cishet works. When people starts to know about LGBT+ at early ages cause their parents and teachers tell them.

With this I'm saying, I don't think artists have any fault on this. Works around fetishes, BDSM, unhealthy relationships, queer characters as the bad ones, etc. will continue to exist as it does in cishet content.

The thing is that parenthood does their thing of teaching their children to be critical with they content they consume.

[Wumbl]

Exactly!

As far as I'm concerned, the only wrong approach to fandom or media is to treat it and real life as the same. The same principle applies to so-called "loli-cons" who are only attracted to the "loli" characters because they resemble real life kids and who actively discuss "lolis" and real kids as if they're the same, and antis who insist people that write dark stories are a danger to society or that dark stories turn people violent (normally at the expense of people with real PTSD funnily enough).

[Maps]

I feel strongly about this with real life people. Like the BL/Yaoi fan fiction of One Direction and BTS members were everywhere on A03 when I first joined. Like, these are real men that you are sexualizing and I can’t stomach that at all.
One thing with BL and Yaoi genres that I really appreciate is a good plotline outside of the sexy stuff. Showing the relationship build and grow is important for me, instead of just watching the creator rush through to get to the next sex scene.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Real life people made up ships disgust me immensely, but I don't really have a strongest disgust when it does not correspond to the people's sexual orientation; however, that may be only because I'm pan, because I can imagine how disregarding people's preferences is even more disrespectful. I simply don't think of it right away.
Actually even if the ship is true in real life I find that very creepy to write on it. Yuck.

[JRHoch]

Well, I have a problem when the smaller blond guy says to the bigger dark-haired guy, "Please be gentle." When I read this, I know I'm reading BL written by a female, because no gay man in all of recorded history has ever said, "Please be gentle."

[joannekwan]

LMAO

[Pan]

I'M DYING

[indagold]

fetishization is much more grosser because its done under a guise of lgbt uwu positivity. You're suppose to side with these people in politics and yet they're destroying the community secretly and covertly and no one speaks up about them because they're afraid of gatekeeping or they pass it off as "their heart is in the right place"

This is a serious problem in all minority communities honestly. People put up too much with "allies" who are creepily obsessed with their status. People who hate lgbt people at least make it known. You know what they side with. When the people who are supportive of you are doing this it makes you feel sick inside. These people are suppose to be the "good guys" but really they are no better.

[TAMAnnoying]

Im going to be honest this kind of topic is always a bit complicated for me. I personally just don't like the romance genre let alone the BL genre (i kind of view them as the same) Both have troupes that I often find uncomfortable. Things like the stalker or the underdog that has to prove to the love interests that "no you love me! not your current boyfriend. clearly." both hetero and homo sexual relationships can be romanticized to the point where it gets a bit too toxic for me even with the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. I don't approve of people who write these types of things with the soul desire to cash in on diversity or "ooo look at me I'm so progressive i have the gays in my comicz" Its a bit disheartening to see a group of people being used for the purpose of making money. Especially if facts are misused and mishandled (one example would be 50 shades).

The very few media I do sub to when it involves romance tends to be stories that actually treat hetero and homo relationships with actual weight and love. I usually stop reading when I realize the writer is simply writing for kicks and views. But i can't exacly say its a bad thing since i know quite a few readers who are also just kind of in the story for kicks. whatta you gonna do right? For me as long I can tell you actually care I'll usually enjoy reading but again- Romance isnt really my thing to begin with X3

LIke @erudenedure said- both in hetero and homo relationships, the stories tend to focus more on the sexual attractions of people rather then like... the hanging out and enjoying each others company part X3 and it can color an odd picture.

[azzy-m]

To me, a positive fetish is a lot worse. Mostly because a lot of people will be able to tell when something is a negative stereotype of a gay relationship while a fetish (such as the seme/uke trope people are mentioning above) can, to those who don't know a lot about LGBT relationships, paint a picture that a relationship between two men or two women is inherently "different" and are usually sexual than a straight one.

Eh, I don't know. I hardly read BLs nowadays. I think I've all but stopped reading the two BL Comics I'm actually subscribed to on Webtoons. But that's how I see it I guess.

[punkarsenic]

well, theyre both shit, arent they? they both reduce queer experiences to bits for the consumption of cishets (primarily), and doesnt speak to our true experience. what i want is authentic, varied, nuanced queer experiences in media