What's your pet peeve 'traits that always get lumped together'?

[TheLemmaLlama]

Clarification: I don't mean like pet peeve tropes, I meant specifically tropes involving a combination of traits X and Y that you dislike precisely because you're tired of seeing X and Y lumped together all the time Does it give you a burning urge to partially subvert some of the traits (but only some of them!) so that X is associated with not!Y for a change?

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Tired of the serious, book-smart introvert and the goofy extrovert with the attention span of a goldfish? Wanna see more easily-distracted extrovert intellectuals, or spacey introvert himbos or super-focused, assertive leader types that have no idea what they're doing?

Or maybe you're sick of shoujo romances where the female lead is a sweet, naive normie and the guy is a troubled jerk? Why can't the girl be the troubled jerk? Or have the sweet one be troubled and the jerk be a (relatively) well-adjusted individual with a healthy sense of self-worth, here to show the sweet one they don't have to put others first all the time?

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Mine is ... well, you could probably tell I have feelings about the above two but my PET pet peeve is the 'selfish, dishonest one' vs the 'selfless honest one':

Basically, the narrative is always there's the evil character who lies, cheats and manipulates for personal gain, and there's the good character who has integrity and helps others and exposes the evil liar for who they are.

Thing is, deception is stressful. Why would any sane selfish person put themselves through that kind of suffering? Personal gain? I'm not saying selfish people who lie for personal gain don't exist, but surely there are a bunch of other selfish people who are content with their lives and see no point in putting themselves through stress for a marginal chance of making their already good lives better ... for a while, probably, before hedonic adaptation kicks in. The selfish, honest character avoids deception not because of principles, but to avoid psychological pain.

The flipside of that is the selfless, deceptive character - who is willing to sacrifice their psychological comfort and engage in deception for the sake of others. We do see the 'well-intentioned extremist' type who does sketchy things for the greater good, but then the hero calls them out about how they're really doing it for themselves deep down, or maybe they straight up turn out to actually not be that well-intentioned at all and was only using their ideals as an excuse to get others on board while really doing everything for personal gain behind the scenes, so they collapse back into the selfish, deceptive combo.

For once, I'd like to see this character being portrayed as genuinely selfless (e.g. by showing that their actions don't benefit them in any way, which they're perfectly aware of and fine with as that's exactly their intention, and they (the character themself) do(es)n't make a show of it for sympathy either). I think it makes sense; it's easier to endure psychological stress if it's for a cause you can get riled up about; something bigger than yourself. In comparison I find it much harder to relate to someone who's willing to go through all that just for personal gain (and I say this as someone who likes personal gain, and does not have any particularly selfless cause I'm passionate about).

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But yeah, do you have strong feelings about any particular traits that you see lumped together all the time, and want to go on a rant about relumping them in different combinations? Please go on that rant, I'm in the mood to read such rants

[Apsinthos]

selfish, dishonest one' vs the 'selfless honest one':

Ah, typical heroic staff. Probably people stop to read this with ageing you know. Feel you there, that's why in comic I'm doing now MC is sensibly egoistic and manipulative, but so are antagonists. Main reason is if you want to achieve something in this you have no choice but to do this.

My dislike us probably unpopular, but I HATE, you know, bishonen macho dark and broody who is ALSO arrogant and abusive towards their partner.... Theres a lot if such manhwa... I just dont understand why it have so much fans, IRL no one will live through the day with sich person. Romanticizing abuse and sadism - I can't stand that. Phew, vent it out a bit, thanks.

[TheLemmaLlama]

Ohh I don't mean like pet peeve tropes, I meant specifically tropes involving a combination of traits X and Y that you dislike precisely because you're tired of seeing X and Y lumped together all the time

So for your example of 'bishonen macho dark and broody who is ALSO arrogant and abusive towards their partner', does it make you want to see characters who are:

• cheerful and unmacho, but arrogant and abusive? or
• abusive and brooding, but humble?

Does it give you a burning urge to partially subvert some of the traits (but only some of them!) so that X is associated with not!Y for a change?

[darthmongoose]

I think the one I'm really tired of is the constant lumping together of how sociable a person is with how sexual they are, and often to add in a slightly problematic angle, the range of their sexual attraction.

So you get this sort of scale, that goes from:

Pansexual, polyamorous party animal who is a chatterbox, loves meeting new people, loves loud music and parties, has a ton of kinks, wears very bright, exciting or fashionable clothes, is always posting selfies, has slept with basically everyone in town.

to...

Asexual or monogamous (and if they're sexual or romantic, it's STRICTLY one gender, like straight, gold star lesbian etc.) introvert smol bean babby who is a virgin, is totally naive, barely leaves the house, just wants to sit in a quiet room reading books and painting pictures, doesn't drink alcohol, dresses like it's 50 years ago.

And in the middle are like... "normie" people. It's kinda tiresome, because there really doesn't need to be a correlation at all. You can get people who are total party animals who are ace or very monogamous (They just love to chat and dance!), you can come across quiet bookworms who get up to the kinkiest stuff possible with a ton of people (They're good at being discreet...). It's one of those things that to me, always betrays a lack of life experience on a creator's part. They just assume that if somebody wears bright clothes and likes social attention, they must be doing it to get a lot of exciting sex, and if somebody is quiet and not one for small talk or adventurous socialising, that their intimate behaviour must be similarly reserved.

[Apsinthos]

cheerful and unmacho, but arrogant and abusive? or

Woah, never thought if such combo, but you know, doesn't sounds like cliché, I'd probably checked that novel/comic, cause having not cliché characteristics may lead to non cliché plot twists.

abusive and brooding, but humble?

Interesting one. Im questioning right now if it's possible to be humble and abusive simultaneously you know...
Though i don't like abusiveness at all.
And you know that? That would be good if someone who is broody and arrogant would be portrayed with positive qualities, because every living person has both positives and negatives. But if I'm not author i cannot subvert anything. And its rare thing to see that people play on your expectations. Usually they follow them.

[NickRowler]

I can’t stand when girl characters are super shy and its played off as being cute. Like she would straight up be having an anxiety attack, that’s not cute.

I also notice that tomboy characters are usually very loud and hyper. Tho irl tomboys and GNC people can also be very shy. Sometimes when an AFAB is more masculine, they can feel a bit alienated from their peers and they end up being more shy.

[cherrystark]

I know a few of these could be called tropes, but I'm just going for "types" I've seen a lot in stories and movies, etc.

• The female MC is almost always "normal". She will almost always have dark hair and has an affinity for books, particularly Jane Austen. Her career goals are often either writer, singer, or fashion designer. Her personality includes books, strictly following some kind of life plan, and being her parents' "golden" child. She doesn't have a lot of friends, but her friends are usually the party-girl sl*t, the token POC, and maybe the token gay character. These friends serve no other purpose aside from being obsessed with every aspect of the female MC's blander than toast life.

• Grieving parents aren't always abusive parents.

• Basic MC becomes "divine" as a way to make them valid to the story.
• A MC always adopts unhealthy coping strategies to address problems, but don't worry, s*x will bring them out of their funk.
• Best friend is always in love with their opposite gender best friend and therefore blind to their gaping character flaws.
• Judgey MCs. She might be normal, and sweet, and good but she's also super judgmental. The MC could know the rest of the cast since infancy and will only characterize them from with base stereotypes. *Especially true in HS stories.
• "Sex" is a character flaw used to drive the plot forward. Character's a virgin - they need to stop being that. Character has had multiple partners - they need to stop that and have one partner. Character hasn't had sex since divorce/breakup - they need partner. Single parent - they should have waited until marriage to give their child a second parent. Married partners - they're always bored with each other, which leads to infidelity.

[tarraxahum]

Does "A truly (morally) good character must always also be the uncompromisingly forgiving-slap-the-other-cheek character otherwise their goodness is compromised" count?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

But yeah, do you have strong feelings about any particular traits that you see lumped together all the time,

Intelligence and arrogance. ^^;

I think this one is so ingrained a lot of people don't even realize it's a trope, they just think it's natural and normal for smart people to think they're better than everyone else. In reality, though...show me a "genius" who's arrogant and I'll show you a person whose expertise is actually very limited, and their insecurity over that fact compels them to put other people down and maintain an air of superiority at all costs.

Either that, or it's just normal people reading any kind of neurodivergence as "arrogance", because "discomfort" or just "having different interests" isn't an option for some reason...

I'm not saying smart people CAN'T be jerks, but most people I've met who are actually smart-- good at figuring things out, solving problems, and spotting connections between different concepts-- tend to be super nice and helpful people, who often don't even think of themselves as smart.
Meanwhile, the types who feel the need to correct your grammar while you talk or constantly complain about how everyone else in the world is an idiot-- they tend to eventually reveal themselves as just miserable people who cling to 1 or 2 academic subjects like a life raft, and pretend that's the same thing as general intelligence (which in itself is an overrated concept).

Thing is, deception is stressful. Why would any sane selfish person put themselves through that kind of suffering?

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit: although selfish honest characters make good villains and people should definitely write more of them, I think we get so many more selfish liars because...usually that's the only way to exist as a selfish person and still have people support you. ^^;

You can say to someone "I'm doing this for both of us, we'll both benefit from my plans, you'll understand if you just go along with me" and have them available to help you, or you can say from the jump "this is just for me, I don't care about you at all, and when this is over I'll toss you out like garbage" and lose them immediately unless they're delusionally loyal. Which is a lot of fun to write, yes, but it makes sense in far, far fewer situations.

Generally, people want to feel that you appreciate them, and will stop liking you if they don't. Any selfish person IRL must quickly learn to at least make dishonest excuses just to maintain their relationships with the people they need most. That's why the usual villain arc is to lie and trick people throughout the story and then reveal the truth at the very end, once they're at the top of the food chain and they don't feel they need anyone else anymore.

Im questioning right now if it's possible to be humble and abusive simultaneously you know...

I don't think it is (but I'd love to discuss it)-- usually abuse entails being willing to force your views on other people, or at least to make your emotions their problem. And I don't think a truly humble person would do that...how do you show deference to people and yet see no problem with making them miserable...?
Unless it's that particular emotional abuse tactic where you constantly downgrade yourself in order to guilt the other person into staying around you...I dunno if self-deprecation and humility are quite the same thing, though...

[powerplantanimations]

If I'm going to be honest... I think this post (and a lot of the answers in the thread) describes the reason why I don't pay attention to tropes to begin with. I can TOTALLY understand the weird fetishy stuff done with minority groups (the only tropes I'd argue people should pay attention to)... but... regarding the ones with heroes and villains. I won't go too deep into it, but I've met people who were in the exact scenario you described and I'm like "Yeaaaaah... maybe certain tropes SHOULDN'T be subverted all the time... ".

IN FACT, I feel like we live in an era where people just want... simple? I remember Puss 'N Boots where people were talking about how great Jack Horner was because the dude is straight-up your average fairy tale villain. He's a bully, he likes shooting puppies in their faces, he tore off Midas's hand, he does everything for the simplest reasons because he can.

That among other little examples taught me that we really do live in an age of subversion. I met someone who said it like this when he saw that He-Man show where he dies. "They've been making me push my wagon with a square or a triangle or a pentagon. But I keep asking them to give ME A NORMAL WHEEL. I WANT THAT WHEEL!"

[darthmongoose]

On the subject of people who are humble and abusive, it's actually possible, and I've experienced it a couple of times. It's sometimes called a "Victim Complex".

Basically, the person constantly frames themselves as a victim and an underdog, always complaining about how bad their life is, how everything goes wrong for them, how they don't have any money, how nobody likes them, they can't get a partner etc. etc. Generally their state genuinely isn't great, like they're somebody who may have been abused in childhood and they're often struggling to build a career and stuff, so it's not false humility; they really are struggling. They take the charity that other people offer them, being thankful or guilty at the time, but then inevitably going back to complaining about their sad and lowly situation not long later, because whenever they get a chance to improve their lives, they tend to undermine it. They'll back out of opportunities, saying "it was going to go badly anyway", they end relationships, usually as a pre-emptive "oh, they would have dumped me if they got to know me." Basically, whenever things are looking like they might get better for them, they'll find a way to either prevent it, or at least find other bad things in their life to focus on that make them still the victim of a cruel and uncaring universe. If their comic blows up, it's still bad because it's not making them enough money to live off (and they won't make efforts to build on this success), if they get a good job, their life is still worse than yours because they don't have a partner, if you get ill, they'll bring up how they've been more ill, and if you suffer discrimination for being marginalised, they'll not miss a beat in reminding you all the ways they think they're even more marginalised... If the world starts treating them too nicely and it threatens to tip the scales to where you're the underdog, or they're actually doing pretty well, expect them to take drastic action to balance the scales, like suddenly doing something incredibly rash to ruin things in order to make their life worse. They might even then openly admit to it and be like "I did it because I don't deserve happiness! I'm a horrible person! I'm such a mess! I should just disappear!" so you basically have no choice other than to comfort them because you can't tell a person off when they're already in such a wretched state, right?

Now most of this sort of people are only abusive towards themselves... but sometimes they do take advantage of well-meaning people who go out of their way to try to help them. They'll consistently take the help, but also trauma-dump on the person, guilt them for having helped them by framing it as a selfish or worthless token gesture, constantly make the person feel bad for being happy or having anything good in their lives, and diminish the happiness about any achievement because either it's a reminder of how unfair their life is, or the've achieved something higher but talk about it like it's rubbish and has brought them nothing but misery. No matter how much you try to help, it's like feeding a black hole, and you'll never be doing enough, and if you try to leave, they'll seek you out like "where were you!? Don't you know I was upset and in a bad way? I know I'm not that important and you were probably off enjoying your wonderful life, but, please spare at least some of your sympathy for me? I have no money and I'm lonely..." etc.

They do genuinely believe that they are humble, weak, powerless, and at the mercy of a cruel universe.... but they're abusive because they're determined to stay that way, sometimes as an excuse to not try harder, or because they've found they like having people run around helping them and feeling sorry for them, and they think that because the world is cruel to them, it ought to be cruel to others, or others must be reminded of how much pain they're in, and if they're not constantly aware of their pain and going out of their way to be kind to them, they need to be told what a cruel and cold and awful person they are for that. Unlike an arrogant abuser, who thinks they're above everyone and so can boss everyone around, the victim complex abuser believes they're at the bottom of the ladder and so everyone owes them sympathy to address that imbalance.

They're not nice to deal with. And they can be hard to make as good main villains, because the only power they have over the protagonist would be taking advantage of the protagonist's own kindness and empathy, and they don't make good protagonists, because they are, by nature, passive, tending to turn down opportunities and not take charge of their own destiny, which is considered a bad trait for a protagonist to have.... So you don't see them much in fiction.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

guilt them for having helped them by framing it as a selfish or worthless token gesture, constantly make the person feel bad for being happy or having anything good in their lives,

and if you try to leave, they'll seek you out like "where were you!? Don't you know I was upset and in a bad way? I know I'm not that important and you were probably off enjoying your wonderful life, but, please spare at least some of your sympathy for me? I have no money and I'm lonely...

they've found they like having people run around helping them and feeling sorry for them,

others must be reminded of how much pain they're in, and if they're not constantly aware of their pain and going out of their way to be kind to them, they need to be told what a cruel and cold and awful person they are for that.

....Personally, I still can't see ^this as "humility". o__o
I know it depends on the definition (simply 'not thinking much of yourself' IS an accepted definition of the word) but, like...in an informal, colloquial sense, would most people really describe these actions as "humble"?? Feeling the need to notify people when they're not paying enough attention to your suffering? Criticizing and making moral judgements about them based on how much they pity you? Is humility truly the root of that kind of behavior...?

It's like saying a workaholic is simply "ambitious" or "driven to succeed"...when usually people who work themselves to death unnecessarily are motivated by guilt, insecurity, trauma, and/or a lack of self worth that only their career seems to fill. It's an easy addiction to fall into, because on the outside your actions look desirable-- people only see the positive capitalist worker bee, not the negative feelings churning under the surface.

And I feel like this is a similar thing, where the person isn't necessarily 'faking' the more desirable outer appearance-- thinking of themselves as a lowly, pitiful creature inferior to everyone else-- it's just a convenient means to an end, to service the undesirable insecurity they feel inside.
"How do I get other people to always pay attention to me, always care about me, and always take my side? I could try being the best at everything (which is a route some people do choose, like the workaholic example)...nah, too risky. I don't know if I can handle that...but I DO know I can be the WORST at everything. No one can take that away from me, and it'll get me the same response."

All that is to say, I think it's more likely that such a person deeply desires external validation (and may actually be very self-centered and conceited) but they don't feel 'safe' enough to achieve that through any kind of success or positive action, so they lean into the opposite: failure and self-sabotage. Being told that they're good or bad isn't as important as being told that they're 'right', that their situation is exactly the way they think it is, and if it starts to change (i.e. escape their control) it's very easy to reset.

And they can be hard to make as good main villains, because the only power they have over the protagonist would be taking advantage of the protagonist's own kindness and empathy

...I just remembered that I actually wrote a main antagonist like this once (and you're exactly right, it was hard as hell). ^^; I think it helped that she was a near-omnipotent god, so not only did she scold and berate people for not understanding her suffering, but she also tended to snap them out of existence or trap them in existential-hell-prisons (which formed the basis of the plot).

The key to defeating her ended up being...essentially, saying to her "if you really think you're so pitiful and you might as well just disappear right now...do it. Disappear. Die."
...Which feels a little mean-spirited without the context (and even in-context, feels * this * close to being a Deus ex Machina) but it kinda makes sense to me. Sometimes the only way to deal with a person like that IRL is to just stop giving them the sympathy they crave and exit the pity party. I mean, don't tell/dare them to 'kys'; just say "you know what, you're right, you do suck" and end the discussion. Or the relationship...

[darthmongoose]

I think it is perfectly valid not to see that as humility really. The thing about the word "humble" is that like a lot of words in English, it's pretty malleable. It can mean "lowly or poor", it can mean "not boastful", it can mean "doesn't think they're important" and an abuser of these types does tick all those boxes.... but then doesn't tick the one that's perhaps the most important thing about humility, which is not thinking others exist for your own benefit.

So... I dunno, maybe it IS impossible to be humble and abusive if your definition of humility is having a truly humble spirit where you'd never dream of manipulating others and having that emotional power over them... But a victim complex abuser is the closest thing I can think of as a humble abuser, because they're humble in situation and station (usually poor, no political power, little social power), and in the way they speak (often demeaning themselves, pessimistic about their own looks, ability to achieve, not being ambitious, never boastful), and don't seem to think they're above the other person, they think they're below them and so that the person being abused (or just the world in general) has a duty to look after them.

But... it is valid to see anyone who expects something from the world, even if it's coming from a place of "I am lowly and have been hurt by the world, it owes me pity" is actually arrogance and a lack of true humility.

[TheLemmaLlama]

I think the one I'm really tired of is the constant lumping together of how sociable a person is with how sexual they are, and often to add in a slightly problematic angle, the range of their sexual attraction.

Oh yeah, I feel that one XD When I see characters that deviate from this like Martina from The Four of Them, it really feels like a breath of fresh air :'D

I also notice that tomboy characters are usually very loud and hyper. Tho irl tomboys and GNC people can also be very shy. Sometimes when an AFAB is more masculine, they can feel a bit alienated from their peers and they end up being more shy.

Totally; you'd think this would be more common since it's the polar opposite of the 'feminine popular girl' trope, but the less feminine protagonist those stories usually have aren't really straight up portrayed as tomboys, esp. if they're quiet or shy :'D

Grieving parents aren't always abusive parents.

Is this an association you've seen? I've read about plenty of grieving parents who aren't abusive and abusive parents who aren't grieving :o

Does "A truly (morally) good character must always also be the uncompromisingly forgiving-slap-the-other-cheek character otherwise their goodness is compromised" count?

I guess if you squint? You could say the two traits are 'morality-as-portrayed-by-the-narrative' and 'forgivingness'. Though I guess the true litmus test is: do you desperately crave to see an uncompromisingly forgiving character who's portrayed by the narrative as immoral?

Intelligence and arrogance. ^^;

I think this one is so ingrained a lot of people don't even realize it's a trope, they just think it's natural and normal for smart people to think they're better than everyone else.

Huh, I'd say its a trope I don't recognize much because I actually don't think it's something I see that much? Like, the shy bookworm is a trope that's usually an intelligent but humble character (whether you use the 'don't think much of themselves' definition or 'not thinking others exist for your own benefit' definition), and I've often seen arrogance and stupidity simultaneously in a character that's meant to be unlikeable XD

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit: although selfish honest characters make good villains and people should definitely write more of them, I think we get so many more selfish liars because...usually that's the only way to exist as a selfish person and still have people support you. ^^;

You can say to someone "I'm doing this for both of us, we'll both benefit from my plans, you'll understand if you just go along with me" and have them available to help you, or you can say from the jump "this is just for me, I don't care about you at all, and when this is over I'll toss you out like garbage" and lose them immediately unless they're delusionally loyal. Which is a lot of fun to write, yes, but it makes sense in far, far fewer situations.

I guess here we might also have different definitions of 'selfish' and 'selfless'; the definitions I was using being 'selfish means putting yourself before others' and 'selfless means putting others before yourself'. I consider myself a selfish person in this sense; if someone kidnapped me and someone else and asked me to choose one person to let go, I'll ask the kidnapper to let me go.

In that sense, a selfish character is still allowed to care about others (they just care about themselves even more), and is definitely not forbidden from inadvertently benefitting others in the process of advancing their self interests!

So it's perfectly possibly for a selfish character to say "I'm doing this for both of us, we'll both benefit from my plans, you'll understand if you just go along with me" and for them to 100% mean it. Something a selfish character can't honestly say would be "I'm doing this for you, I don't get anything out of this; I'm just doing it because I care about you"

I agree that trickery is generally needed to get people to do something that's a really bad deal for them (to the extent that they'll end up "tossed out like garbage"), but selfish people (by my definition) are perfectly capable of subsisting on deals that aren't so terrible for others, which allows them to be honest :]

So... I dunno, maybe it IS impossible to be humble and abusive if your definition of humility is having a truly humble spirit where you'd never dream of manipulating others and having that emotional power over them... But a victim complex abuser is the closest thing I can think of as a humble abuser, because they're humble in situation and station (usually poor, no political power, little social power), and in the way they speak (often demeaning themselves, pessimistic about their own looks, ability to achieve, not being ambitious, never boastful), and don't seem to think they're above the other person, they think they're below them and so that the person being abused (or just the world in general) has a duty to look after them.

Tbh I can see this kind of abuser to feel very strongly in the moment that their life sucks and no-one cares and that's not fair; but then genuinely feel bad about it afterwards, because when they're thinking clearly they don't actually believe the world owes them pity, but when they're craving it so much in the moment, all they can do is cry and cry until they get it, like a drowning person grabbing at whatever's nearby without considering if the thing they're grabbing can actually support them.

I guess one might argue that if they genuinely felt bad in their 'moments of clarity', they would apologize to the people they hurt and distance themselves from them to avoid hurting them again, but thing is this sort of action also evokes empathy in others and someone who doesn't have the firmest sense of boundaries would feel compelled to forgive them and reassure them that they're going to stick with them, which the abuser would have a lot of trouble refusing, and then the cycle begins again, even though the abuser isn't meaning to manipulate or exercise emotional control over the other person but ends up doing so anyway :'D

they can be hard to make as good main villains, because the only power they have over the protagonist would be taking advantage of the protagonist's own kindness and empathy

Parents. 'Nuff said.

[tarraxahum]

Though I guess the true litmus test is: do you desperately crave to see an uncompromisingly forgiving character who's portrayed by the narrative as immoral?

Tell you what, I'm pretty sure I even have that story somewhere in my backlog of ideas, soooo... x)

[cherrystark]

Is this an association you've seen? I've read about plenty of grieving parents who aren't abusive and abusive parents who aren't grieving :o

Tbh, I've only really seen this in online PNR stories, with the exception of Katniss's mom in the Hunger Games. Basically, it's used to make the female MC more sympathetic. In Katniss's case, her mom is catatonic and neglects her daughters, leaving Katniss to fill in the role of a parental figure. Most of the time, however, the abuse is a reaction to something bad that happened that the MC is blamed for: loss of family member, death of spouse, parent abandons them. The grieving parent then punishes the MC with abuse until the romantic lead can take them away from it all.