Apr 2019
98 / 142
May 2019
May 2019
skicoak
May '19
punkarsenic

I have cited it before... but I feel, on a basic level, it's a bit problematic to site the rates that represent what the creatives think they SHOULD get paid (on minimum) versus the reality of what publishers are actually paying.

A word on unions... My pops was a union organizer for The United Steelworkers of America ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1978/12/10/newport-news-is-bracing-for-a-shipyard-strike/8c5a15de-734e-485f-af97-b239c93eae4f/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fb2ef40c68dc

I'm extremely proud of the work he did and his passion for union principles is on open display in the article about his greatest union drive. (He's the Jack Hower in the article, I'm a JR.) And we've discussed the schism in trying to organize creative fields repeatedly. Most jobs/trades deal with a task that has a relatively agreeable value if done competently. The arts get complicated.... finished products don't have equal value even among competent creators. It makes establishing a minimum pay scale difficult... you can price people completely out of a industry and create a barrier to entry level employment.

It creates a massive conflict in my own opinions on this.

SleepingPoppy
May '19
punkarsenic

I think it's fine to just continue the conversation here. Pretty sure the original conversation is done and this is a natural follow up. (And I'm at least enjoying reading this continuation)

punkarsenic
May '19
skicoak

hmm thats fair. i spose the best route is to just cite both and clarify the difference?

thats awesome!

hmmm thats very true... although i dont think theyre impossible hurdles. i wont try to address them here bc i rly think im hijacking this thread and i also dont rly have the answers

i spose, though if it became a new thread it could attract new ideas from ppl who arent reading along?

turtleme
May '19

Just to chime in here as a novel author and script writer (and only script writer) for my comic, it boils down to a few things.

  1. Wording, when a writer is making a pitch to collaborate with an artist, is very important. If it's something along the lines of "make my fantastic words into art!", then you're implying that you want to make your own dreams into a reality by utilizing the services of someone else. If that's the case, then paying up front makes sense. If you wish to split evenly 50/50 and you're that confident in your work, I would still pay an advance in royalty. This is what traditional publishers do as well as many other platforms when bringing in new works. This can be implied when collaborating with an artist.

  2. How detailed is your script? Working in the comic-making industry for a bit, I realized how in-depth and detailed a script can be. There are some writers like myself who tend to describe every panel, from the perspective, the angle shot, the effects used, the emotions portrayed, while providing the artist references for everything. Other writers, tend to leave it more to be interpreted by the author, providing a basic scene and leaving it up to the artist to draw up themselves. While both can be considered scriptwriting, the first relieves a lot of creative and concept work for the artist, letting him/her truly focusing on making the scene, while the second does little more than giving a the artist a novel and telling him/her to adapt it himself.

  3. Qualifications. It really sucks, but there's a certain weight when a well-known, perhaps New York bestselling author, makes a collaboration pitch, than an up-and-coming writer with little under his belt. There's an inherent risk in collaborating with someone that hasn't finished a book before that an artist might not want to take. That's understandable and smart. As for the writer, I feel like I've said this before, but the best way to make a pitch isn't to exclaim how great an idea of a comic you have, but building a resume or portfolio so that artists that you're trying to attract can be confident in not only your writing skills, but your dedication to sticking out with a story.

In the end, I think I find it hypocritical when a writer, who hasn't finished a book or even started one, wants to create a story with an artist, and then denies every artist that says they're interested because their artwork or style isn't good enough. Just like how writers look at an artist's portfolio or past work, it's not wrong for an artist to look at a writer's portfolio (and if he doesn't have one, then something of similar value, which might be monetary compensation).

SleepingPoppy
May '19

Just a fun note: If the thing you're mad about boils down to "Someone else won't work on my thing for free!" you are the problem, not the people that won't give you a chance. It doesn't matter if it's The Next Big Thing or not.

I'm not saying no one should ever take a chance on someone else's ideas. I'm saying if you're mad when they don't, you're the problem. It has nothing to do with art verses writing, it has to do with entitlement. YOU are not entitled to someone else's time, talent, or effort. You don't get to be mad they won't bend for you, a total stranger. You could be the next Steven King and this kind of attitude still makes you a jerk.

Jenny-Toons
May '19
2
ThatWriterGuy

Well here's the thing about both this post and that last post:

1.) Do you actually actively try to help others in their projects? Do you provide advice, feedback, say what you like about someone's work or what they can improve on? It's a two way street; we have to be willing to give what we want to get from other people. Like you're talking about people not giving chances, but...do you actually help other writers? At all?

2.) Do you actually have anything published or have you actively worked on anything? Novels? Comics? Short stories? Anything? Do you have anything published online at all?

Most people who do unpaid collabs actually do it because they not only trust this person but because this person has demonstrated they know how to act in a professional manner. The person has tried to help others, have published works, and all around don't feel entitled to other people's time and efforts.

This is coming from someone who has posted both short stories and comics. Currently, I use my Tapas account for my comics, but I was a writer who posted stories long before I started comics.

Moreover, as someone who has been in collabs that were unpaid, I personally wouldn't want to collab with you. It has little to do with the money. Rather, it's the attitude and the way you carry yourself. I can tell your frustrated. But addressing your peers in the manner that you do will make people steer clear of you. No one wants to collab with someone who acts this way.You get blacklisted easily and people end up remembering you as that person who didn't conduct themselves like a professional.

You really give me the vibe of "Oh, I'm never doing to collab with this person. Ever."

Edit: Yo -- just a heads up. I'm reading through their posts, and they may or may not be a troll. So like...take things with a grain of salt. Like, my words still stand here, but tread lightly with this user.

turtleme
May '19
ThatWriterGuy

This about sums up the mindset of every sensible person that takes their work seriously. No one would rather take risks over something concrete. A writer with a family to feed and job to do wouldn't want to take risks over getting something stable...

SleepingPoppy
May '19
ThatWriterGuy

You're assuming no one does that? 90% of the writers who post asking for collabs have no examples of their writing. It's not actually true that the well thought out collabs aren't read and considered, but that vast majority of people here are already working part or full time, are students, and are working on a personal project. Most of us literally don't have the ability to take on a free project for someone else.

edit: Maybe 80% have nothing, 10% have a script or part of a script, and maybe 10% are actual writers with completed or in progress work one can look at to guage ability and interest.

punkarsenic
May '19
1
ThatWriterGuy

EDIT: removing the crud

beyond supply and demand, this is because most writers come to the forums looking to employ / commission an artist, and most artists come looking to be employed / commissioned*. the writer wants you to draw their idea. the artist wants to draw your idea. imagine if you had two stands, at one the guy called out 'give me free icecream!' and at the other, the guy called out 'FREE ICECREAM!' who's gonna be more popular?

*this isnt always the case, but usually calls for equal collaboration dont get the silent treatment that unsolicited calls for free / spec work do.

if you cant afford to pay someone to make your Thing, you dont deserve to make your Thing. whatever you put into it prior to the make is irrelevant.

that is called spec work. making someones comic for free because they COULD get big, thats extremely-unlikely-to-be-fruitful spec work. you should never, under any circumstances, be you an artist, a writer, or an accountant, do spec work.

you should listen to this, itll be enlightening to you:

Jenny-Toons
May '19
SleepingPoppy

Basically this. And like...ideas don't exist in a personal bubble. Someone out there can and will make the exact same idea, with the exact same story (or similar) and guess what -- they're not an asshole.

Like -- don't assume you have such a big, grand idea that people will overlook your attitude. Someone who's more chill and reasonable can easily take that idea and make it better. And even if it's not better, more people will gradually flock to that reasonable person than someone who's got an attitude problem.

turtleme
May '19
ThatWriterGuy

Yes people do that, but there are also a lot of writers that saying something like "I have this great idea but I can't tell you unless you're x-amount qualified and are super interested in it based on the three sentence brief I whipped up before I can show you my holy grail of a script."

Those same writers then complain about how everyone is ignoring them and being an "ass".

I've been on this forums for a few years now and I'm confident in saying that every writer who has pitched his/her idea in a professional manner (with previous experience, well-thought ideas, scripts uploaded and ready in a shareable document) have been met with professional treatment and interest.

On the flip side, writers who pitch like it's just a hobby or something on the side, artists treat it as such.

UrMom
May '19
Jenny-Toons

I'm with you on thinking this person may be a troll, their posts are too soap opera hammy not to be.

Unless they're a child/teenager, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

SleepingPoppy
May '19

I've been assuming that regardless. There's no reason to take them seriously based on their approach.

Mari
May '19

I feel like a lot of this butthurt could be erased if people who are looking for artists for their story ideas would get that if you want someone to draw out a story you wrote and want the art to your exact specifications, that's comission work. It's not really a collab. People who do collabs for free / future profits usually do them because they're both invested in the art/story. So if you want someone to do the art for free, you should be open for the artist to be involved in the writing / plot as well, and not come with a finished script....Atleast, that's how I feel about it. All the collabs I've been apart of have been labours of love with another person

HGohwell
May '19

Come guys, we've had the discussion about giving attention seekers what they want. Disengage and stop playing their game so they'll get bored.

On the actual topic, I agree it's very unhelpful to ever compare the two, especially trying to compare novels and artists as some people have done. They're both story telling mediums but do so are plays and tv shows and movies and animations and even just rambling out loud. They're all very different. I agree lots of artists and writers should try each other's mediums, just to get an idea of each other's struggles. A bit of walking a mile in someone else's shoes can go a long way after all. And, as the original post was trying to say, and as the topic says, it's definitely not a competition. And yes, it has to be said because as we can all see everytime it's mentioned, it goes down the road of who gets paid more and somehow that always ends up linked back to value, which is completely ridiculous anyway. Fruit pickers and bin men get paid minimum wage, but without them you're not eating fruit and your streets are full of waste, so they're pretty damn important (and should be paid more but that's a different argument).