Writing vs Art: it's not a contest

[Jenny-Toons]

Ok, look, I'm not even gonna bother re-typing my post, so I'm linking to it:

Once again, this becomes an "artist" vs "writer" type of discussion. And as both, I will have to say this: the type of quality is different because these are different fields. The type of research done by an artist is different than the type of research done by a writer. The type of edits and revisions done by a writer are different than those done by an artist. Not to mention how we bring in practice, hard-work, effort, AND experience -- quite frankly, we really cannot and should not try …

There comes a point where you cannot even compare these two. I've said it before: writing and illustrating both have different merits. They're two forms of art that require different levels of labor.

This still stands right here and right now based on that actual thread. There's no need to play Devil's Advocate for this particular person. Not this case because it's not even about comparing the two. It's about the attitude.

Did I hear frustration? Yes -- not everyone can do both writing and art for their comics. I'm one of those who can write novels and comics. Some people can only illustrate, and some can only do writing. It happens, and it can be frustrating.

But if this person thinks people will collab with someone who doesn't show action, planning, or some level of professionalism, they're solely mistaken.

I've done collaborations with friends and others who were writers. They were published, they showed effort, and they had a plan. They also helped others, build connections, etc.

To be frank -- I'm never going to ever consider working with someone who lashes out like that. Because if they feel someone is obligated to work for them for free -- regardless if they're an artist or writer -- they will not respect that person's efforts or time, and they will get mad at every single thing that might not go their way. Just look at how they responded to their replies -- complete lack of respect.

So it's not about another "Writer vs Artist" debate. This ain't even it. It's about someone with an attitude problem who let their frustrations project on others. And frankly, if they don't clean it up, no one will work with them. Ever.

[Reign]

@joannekwan

Wait, what?

[joannekwan]

I'll explain in a PM so as not to derail this thread. : )

[keii4ii]

If one person is expecting the other(s) to work for them to make their dream project a reality, they need to offer compensation. Regardless of whether the expected worker is a writer or artist.

YUP. It's the brainparent's responsibility to pay up to bring their brainchild to life. If I need a writer so they can turn my under-developed dream story idea into fully fleshed out scripts for me to draw, then I need to compensate the writer for their services. If I hire a writer-type person to be my editor for my existing scripts, same thing applies.

My wallet opens for my dreams (when needed); their wallet opens for theirs.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

But what we are doing here is comparing rather time and content to effort, yes?
In fact, I feel what the problem is with art in general is the fact that we do not know what is happening in an artist's mind.

Some would argue that Surikov, as a realist, was a master of mise-en-scène. And some would say that such art was not even at Van Gogh's reach, taking into account Van Gogh's mental illness. Then, some would say that Surikov's art is a great example of control, a mastering of details and technique. Other would say that Van Gogh elicits such raw, pure emotion in an audience. We can't even equally compare two visual artists without taking into account our subjective preferences! Both of them are geniuses, but in two completely different genres, with two completely different backgrounds that gave them two completely different skill sets.

Let us compare Van Gogh and Dostoevsky's "The Gambler" then. 1-2 days versus 26 days, in the big scheme of things, it comes back to the same amount of time. Same quantity of emotional content as well. Two men, lost in their pain. Two different mental illnesses (Dostoevsky was a gambler and according to DSM-V gambling is part of the substance abuse classification). Two different raw expressions of emotion. Which one is more valuable? Van Gogh's according to visual artists who value their skill set more? Dostoevsky's according to authors who value their skill set more?

As for indie comics, I agree, some visual artists are also excellent authors. I have my favorite one in mind. She is a genius and plays you with words and images and breaks you an reconstructs you as she wishes. However, how many visual artists who start with comics would say that indeed, it is the script that is most difficult for them? How many authors transitioning from descriptive writing (I am an aficionada of descriptive myself and can assure you that my pitfall is indeed dialogue) into dialogue would feel problems? Would you not have an excellent literary suggestion for the one and an excellent comic suggestion for the other so that we learn from each other's skills as opposed to compare us and create unnecessary competition.

I am sorry if this comes across as mean. It is not my desire at all! I went ahead and let my musings take hold of me. I just feel that we shouldn't be comparing, just admitting that ART is TOUGH! And that it takes effort and sacrifice.

And that as such we should respect the time of our brother artists, respect their hard work and support them in it. Not diss and compare.

[Maps]

Having both a novel and a comic on Tapas makes me realize how different they are and how rewarding they are in their own ways.

I never thought my novel was easier than my comic... writers block is (definitely ) a real thing, especially with a long and elaborate story that needs all ends to meet and make sense with no gaps. I swear readers have the keenest eyes!

There is also the struggle of trying to keep you wording nonrepetitive, struggling when you feel like you have slow and disappointing chapters and feel low about some of the chapters you are putting out over others. And don’t get me started on trying to perfect grammar. I’m an English BA and a Linguistics MA and I still fuck that up. I can sit and stare at one of my chapters for hours, editing around, and will still always find mistakes.

There is also less of an audience than there are with comics, so it’s more difficult to share your work and get it seen. Sometimes when I have writers block on my novel I even lose the motivation to want to draw my comic. It can be so draining and it can least weeks to months (mostly back when I first began my story).

Comics take far more time to create, no doubt. And behind a comic their is also a script and a story in itself, but most of the details are provided in the art and not as much in the wording, so you aren’t having to constantly think about the next word or he next sentence or the next paragraph. While art takes longer, can be frustrating, and is also incredibly draining, sometimes I feel like my mind can relax more than when I’m not constantly think about the next sentence, but just letting the colors flow. This might be unique to me, because drawing calms me and writing makes my brain rush. Though, even I have struggled with the outline of how I want my comic and it’s panels to go (I get to art block too).

I’m definitely so much more picky on myself and a perfectionist when it comes to art, because there are so many styles that you (I don’t want to say “compete” with) want to be original from/not copy. Or plotlines that you want to be original from. Or cliches you have to avoid. And art is something that is also unique to people. I can say with confidence we have all had to write essays and papers throughout our life, but not everyone is fortunate or talented enough to be able to create art. It is a gift and it is unique.

But so is good writing.

In the end, they are two different things (though similar in effort). I had never even thought to compare them to one another or against one another. It’s a different type of effort, writing a novel than it is to creating a comic. I can feel that shift in me physically and mentally.

And I think maybe this debate occurs because Tapas provides the ability for both novelist and artists to be in this same community. But in the end, they’re both unique talents despite their similarities and difference.

Interesting topic though!

[Likri]

Well, you can't even compare 2 artists of the same medium on a leveled groun, so weighing text vs paintings is odd on a basic level (this is not personally to your point, more about the general topic). But since it's a comic forum, s media that incorporates both sides of the coin, I gotta say (I'm not sure where I'm going with this and probably should go to sleep) - ,doing both writting and drawing your own stuff is the biggest b*tch of the three options X) You strain your brain on dialog AND get a hand cramp.

[Maps]

I will add this, I do get a little “oh dearrr...” when I see posts of writers asking too much of artists to fit what their vision is. I get that someone’s novel is their baby, they’ve been imagining these characters and this world for a long time as they’ve created their story in their head.
But they need to understand that artists have their own styles and their own visions and their art will never look 100% like the novelist will be imaging their characters and their world to look like. There’s got to be leniency and understanding. And I’m saying this as a one-way (novelists asking artist) because it does tend to be the writer that usually has all these expectations for an artist on the posts I’ve seen here. I’m sure their are plenty of artists out there who are willing to work to adapt with a novelists’ visions, but they shouldn’t expect so much right out the gate. I do think their is a more sensitive way of asking sometimes.

[Kittosaurus]

Here are my two cents on the matter:

I've said this before on a similar thread... but I think it's worth mentioning again. Society in general usually has a higher level of writing skill than drawing skills. This is because writing is a mandatory skill you need to learn to graduate high school, art is not. Therefore it is easy to disregard it - because for the most part it's something everyone can do.

BUT... not everyone can write well! Just as not every self proclaimed artist can draw well. Taste also comes into play. While there are technical aspects that experts in each given field can probably agree on the average consumer is not necessarily always going to care if one piece of literature is technically better than the other, if one made them feel more, or was more relatable in some way. Just as some people may think that realism is the pinnacle of true artistic greatness where as others may think a more stylized approach shows more artistic talent. So how do we ever determine which of two art forms are better when there is debate on sub genres of those art forms. In the end it is all subjective.

I personally see merit in both and love both writing and creating art.

Yes on average drawing takes longer than writing but that is not always the case.

I think one thing that writers like the one who started the other banned thread (And before you pounce on me I am not grouping all writers into this - just a specific group of entitled ones). don't consider is that most indie comic artists have to (or choose to) write their own scripts. So they already know how much time and effort it takes to write a comic.

While yes, they are different skills, there is also a lot of overlap - at least when it comes to comics and story driven art. As artists also have to be storytellers but in different ways. Everything from the pose, expressions, color palette and design of characters/ environments need to give the readers necessary information to further the plot.

Both artists and writers can learn a lot from each other and help the other improve drastically. And like others have said before - if there is respect then unpaid collaborations can not only work but be beneficial for both parties.

[AniStaciaArt]

@Maps Slightly off the main topic but what you said is exactly why I don't do commissions or collaborations anymore. My art was never what someone else had in their head. (That's what I get for not developing my psychic ability along with my art.) And maybe that's part of the reason writers have problems finding artists to collaborate with. We've been burned before.

I just do all of my own comic by myself now. The writing might not be great. Honestly, the art might not be great. But at least I haven't spend days on a page only to have someone tell me it's not good enough. Start over. It'll be worth it when it starts selling.

[Maps]

Right. It’s really the lack of understanding that no one is going to create a picture-perfect idea of what the novelist had been envisioning in their head. If a novelist really wants to collab with an artist without so much trouble, I think it would be best for them to explore different creators and styles and asking upfront if they want to do a collab with them.
It would be too hurtful and a waste of time to send people your hard work and have them shut you down because, like you said, you weren’t psychic.

[Mari]

As someone who has done both (not succesfully) I will say that in my opinion writing is a far more enjoyable experience than drawing, and people who complaing about artists bitching about the time it takes them to do things and collabs that offer nothing but "I just want you to do all this work for this project but I want 0 input from you but expect you to revise everything you draw twice and this is totally fair" can all fuck off.

Other than that, it's all the same. Do whatever but just respect each others profession and if the work isn't paid for don't expect people to re-do shit.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

You know what. It is obvious some writers here think that visual arts are easy so they go about demanding the impossible from overworked, underpaid (or not paid at all … mostly not paid at all) artists. And it is also obvious some visual artists view that they should be entitled to more respect than authors.

There is some great lack of empathy here.

So Tapas should teach people empathy. Every time a writer passes a dismissive comment on visual arts, he should be forced to draw a full panel without the right to use dialogue. Every time a visual artist passes a dismissive comment on literature, he should be forced to write up until Tapas word-limit without the right to use dialogue.

Then, it should be posted on this forum for us to be able to comment it. When they would have visual artists and writers deconstructing their own work, they might understand how difficult what the other side is doing is and then we wouldn't be here, tip-toeing around each other, giving opinions on things we have never done and trying to make the other side (who also has never done what we are doing) see how difficult our work is.

(This of course is not aimed at people who do both and suffer and try to make us who don't do one or the other understand how both are difficult - You guys have all my respect.)

[vothnthorvaldson]

I think one thing that writers like the one who started the other banned thread (And before you pounce on me I am not grouping all writers into this - just a specific group of entitled ones). don't consider is that most indie comic artists have to (or choose to) write their own scripts. So they already know how much time and effort it takes to write a comic.

I think it has to do with that, yes.
As a generality, I would never see the value of creative works as dependent in any way of the time they took to complete (and it's not even calculable! A book (for eg.) may take little time to write, but years to prepare, directly or more indirectly).

But when it's a collaboration, we have to think, a little bit, in term of time. And as you said, a comic artist generally have at least a bit of a idea about writing scripts.
And I suppose it's fair to say that in general, a comic artist AND writer spend more time on the drawing than on the writing to obtain a good enough general result. So that may be very well the reason comic script writing (and not the whole of literature!) is considered as less time consuming than comic drawing.

But is it not at least partially because comic artists (and possibly, comic readers) are more focused on the drawings than on the script?

I can totally imagine how an excellent comic script could take forever to write.
(for example, I had a way more ambitious vision of my comic in term of writing before starting it; I got drastically less ambitious because of.. time! I wanted to use a less modern, more consistent and formal language for example, but that asks for too much research. I wanted a constructed language for written signs etc.. To be honest the script I had in mind would have taken at least as much time as the drawings. But I did not think it was essential to take the time to write this better script, and in that, I don't know if I was right!)

[baasinsimple]

It IS extremely difficult to write, and I don't understand why certain people don't understand. As an artist and a writer I'll say this, art and writing are two completely different "arts" if you will. They're both techniques of expression. They fit different people and those two arts, just as much as sculpting, photography and poetry are used to tell people of your outlook on the human experience. Simply put, they are tools of expression and comparing the two welcomes the death of the authenticity of that expression.

I have a novel and a comic. The comic is discontinued, but I still consider myself more of a comic artist, I'd say from an art standpoint a comic is more time consuming but less difficult for me personally, because I have a more natural understanding of panel composition, posing and speech bubble placement etc, while it's not exactly prodigious, I would say it comes to me easier. Writing for me is much more difficult, I can't follow my workflow from the comic, I have to proofread now, look up grammar tips, understand how words flow together, write in the voice of a character etc. All of those are extremely difficult for me to do, but much less time consuming. Anyone reading this may have a different experience with it and that's okay.

I second DokiDoki's outlook. You cannot compare these specific ways of expression. They both achieve the same goal in different ways, why anyone thinks of it as a "contest" is beyond me.

[Rodimus13]

kay, I think I am just being sensitive right now - I do admit a virtual hug wouldn't be unwelcome).

HUGS!!!!! hugs lots

Don't worry that was from the writer. Hubby is not a huggy man.

Now onto.... the wife of the artist personal opinion.

The point of comparing writing to creating art is a lot like comparing avocados and mangos (Sorry! Tired of the apple and oranges bit ).

That said, for years now I have been managing the business side of my husband's freelance work. I know exactly how much it's worth, what it takes him to get things done, how difficult most things are, ect. Due to this, I know how much I'd owe my husband if I ever had to really pay him for his work on the comic. I admit... it's his dream to do a comic but Im the one that wanted so badly for my story to be made. He is very happy I kinda forced the issue because he is enjoying the creation. He often reminds me making the scrips is hard, but it doesn't seem like it because the story has been playing in my head for years and years now. I know the characters like old friends, as does he. Heck, sometimes to work out scripts we act out the parts- taking certain roles.

That said, this works because we collaborate. Yes, I provide the script but I leave it vague enough to make sure his vision can be included. We talked it over. I help him improve the pictures and he sometimes improves my script or points out issues I missed.

I think the problem with the original thread's OP was that they were mad. Perhaps they did not respect the level of work that a artist does, so artists got mad at them. Maybe they didn't understand that if you don't share the story, then the other person will want some compensation as well. Maybe they've been burned by bad collaborations. I just don't know.

In the end, I feel like if the writer is seeking and artist, or vice versa, both sides need to feel like they are being properly compensated for their time. Perhaps that means money, or it may mean showing simple respect, some sort of "do this for me and I'll do that for you" with other projects they both want done, or a combination of these.

Now.... that said I'm gonna go and watch hubby draw pretty pictures again.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

This is I believe one of the most beautiful, most inspiring (and most romantic!!!) testimonies of how two artists, albeit using different media, working in different ways, can come together and create something. Something beautiful, something they are attached to.

And I agree with you 100%. Both sides need to be compensated and both sides need especially to be respected for there to be collaboration. Collaboration in anything, for that matter.

However, one thing I do see a lot in the writing community (since that is, and has been, the community I mostly interact with where art is concerned) is a passion for what we have created. And a belief that we have created something special, something unique and that when it is not recognized, the other part must be blind, at fault, etc. We need to understand that the fact that we create in itself is beautiful. But that it doesn't mean everyone is going to be as passionate about our work as we are. And thus, if we want something from someone, we also need to compensate that person.

Visual artists are not paid at the full value of what they produce (mind you, neither are writers - don't get me wrong) and thus they must charge for their work. Writers need to understand that just like they don't live off of air and love, neither do visual artists.

[baasinsimple]

Complete and total agreement.

[Kittosaurus]

One thing I forgot to mention is artists have a long history of being undervalued in any type of commission setting (Not just relating to comics). There are a lot of uniformed individuals that believe that just because an artist enjoys doing artwork, and because they already do art in their spare time that they should not have to compensate them when they want a piece of artwork made.

I think this has installed a general bitterness/ cautiousness in a lot of artists and unpaid collaboration requests put them over the edge.

[Rodimus13]

Hubby says:

Stop, collaborate and listen

Ice is back with a brand new invention

Because this thread is getting serious and we needed a laugh.