Writing vs Art: it's not a contest

[Moi]

I'll just comment here:

Before you start a collaboration, you MUST KNOW the person you wanted to COLLAB to.

When it regards to compensation Go watch BAKUMAN anime.
the writer and the artist have 50/50 on their salary as mangakas..
You can see the effort of the two main characters in the story.
It's an awesome watch!

Don't READ this

[elyss]

I just went to read the thread that was locked and WOW. I write and draw, and they are both terrible and I mean that in the best way. Both take a horribly long time and are hard to let go because perfection, perfection, perfection.
I can't imagine comparing both either. They are their own labors of love and anyone who manages to complete either deserves a standing O and a wrist brace because ow

[McAmps]

Hmm. As someone who is writing a novel and making a comic, both have their difficulties.

Art takes foreverrrr. Not to mention hpw difficult it can be to get it to look right. It can be more satisfying though in that you actually see the visual result of the comic progressing. People also tend to give comics the time of day more than writing.

Writing in theory is faster, but good writing is not. If you want to write good, you will be editing over and over again. The repetition will kill your soul and it is harder to see the progress imo. Not to mention the trial and error of plotting and consistency and such. You also get less feedback I've found, which makes it feel very lonely at times.

I think writing is easier personally, because it comes more natural to me, but it doesn't come without its hardships for sure.

[Maps]

Ughh I read that thread too and it annoyed me how they talked to @joannekwan

@joannekwan you are appreciated and well done on standing your ground and not completely losing it!

[skicoak]

As much as I want to respect the various opinions on the individual merits of writing versus art....this argument ALWAYS boils down to simple economic realities.

Page Rates – 2017

Companies/Publishers do not see the skill trees as equal, there's no merit in believing collaborations should be any different. In truth, when you realize all the various paid positions the "artist" is filling in, the debate is borderline silly.

[Luminosophy]

"I just want you to do all this work for this project but I want 0 input from you but expect you to revise everything you draw twice and this is totally fair"

That's a really good point that's majorly off-putting in a lot of collab pitches. Even assuming I want to work with them, I really cannot fully do my job as an artist if they don't even let me have any creative lee-way on designs, settings, colours etc. I'm supposed to be able to take people's concepts and show how they can improve them, but they won't even let you do it. Where's the fun in that? You want me to hate my art, pay me.

[skicoak]

I really cannot fully do my job as an artist if they don't even let me have any creative lee-way on designs, settings, colours etc.

I don't run into this as much in comics as I do in some of my commission gigs.

I design a lot of wrestling gear for guys on the indys and having the same repeated conversations about color schemes is brutal. So many cats think black and one color are the only type of scheme.... you gotta drag them kicking and screaming into using colors.

[ar-ninetysix]

It's not edgy enough though!

[therealbereth]

I saw the closed thread... from the outside. And judging from all your answers, it's good that I decided not to click on it. I get way too emotional too fast. Not gonna go down that rabbit hole.

That said... Why is this even a debate?

As someone who's been writing for a good ten years now, and has struggled in vain to find her way into drawing as well (I did NOT have the patience to see myself growing on that front lol), I can say with conviction, as so many of you already have: It is simply not the same.

Both is incredibly hard. Both for very different reasons, however. I don't think I need to reiterate the consensus here, as all of us in this thread seem to know and respect what type of skillset artists and writers respectively need to bring their art to life.

---

But there are a few things that don't sound accurate to me. As a writer, I take issue mostly with the following claim that I kept reading here from different people (so you're just the one with the most poignant example, Maps):

Comics take far more time to create, no doubt.

doubt.png

Okay, now, don't get me wrong. On the surface, it may look like it takes longer to first write up the story, then envision what you want it to look like, then split all that up into panels, work with lighting, mood etc.—all this is incredibly hard work and, as I mentioned before, I wouldn't have the patience for that. Writing comes easier to me, as I always played with words.

But that's just the thing: Good writing is a play with words.

... not everyone can write well!

Exactly!

Writing in theory is faster, but good writing is not.

A thousand times yes!

Artists, never forget: You can use lighting! You can use colors! You can use transitions between panels, you can bring the characters' emotions directly to the viewer. It is all there, readily available, almost never to be misunderstood when you know what you're doing.

We writers only have words.

Words to elicit feelings. To show, not tell, what our characters are going through. To conjure a scene, a mood, a tension. In order to do this well, a writer needs to learn their craft. Every change in word choice, every change in sentence structure, immediately changes what people see in their heads. And then it's not even guaranteed that everyone sees the same images! On the contrary.

All we can do is learn the hell out of the meaning and cultural connotations behind the words we use in order to make people forget that they are, in fact, reading. To give the illusion that they are right there.

Just as you, as artists, play with colors, with panels, with different perspectives, we play with words. And just like your work, it takes years to learn the basics, and to utilize them into our own style.

So while both crafts are, in their essence, so different, what is the same with both is that: our skillsets don't come from nowhere. And if we get compensated professionally? We get paid for all the time we kept learning, growing. For all the skills we have acquired to make it look easy when we use colors or just the right word choice to elicit feelings in the people who consume our art.

But please, don't say that writing takes less time. It is not true, and it gives way to an attitude where writers aren't valued. I don't think any of us want to devalue the "other" side.

[skicoak]

But please, don't say that writing takes less time.

This pops up in everyone of these debates... here's the reality...

It DOES take less time across the board to write the story. For every example of a writer with a long creative process... there's an artist with the same/greater time constraints.

The best yardstick we have for evaluating it side by side are people doing both... there's multiple threads on it. The writing periods are uniformly fractions of the art process periods.

This doesn't devalue the "writer" side... it's just not an argument to create equitable work divisions.

[therealbereth]

Good writing takes time. Exceptional writing takes even more time. Writing that elicits the same feelings in the reader like it would do if it were done by art? I argue that it takes just as much time.

We have to know just as much what kind of feeling a certain color, a certain light, elicits. But we can't rely on visual cues to deliver that. We have to create these with nothing but words, on a white paper, from nothing.

And yes, I do feel devalued if people claim that my craft takes less time in general. I haven't been learning all that I know (and I'm still learning, likely as we all are), I haven't been working literal years on my project, building the world, the characters etc. to then have people claim that "writing takes less time" or, worse, "writing is easier".

And that is what I am reading between the lines every single time someone says something like that. It simply hurts. So... don't.

---

Mind that not everyone works on their writing for years and changes and edits and whatnot. So yeah, maybe many writing projects do take less time to come to fruition.

I think it's just important to me that we don't make a general rule out of it. Because then I look at the attention to detail I apply when working on my project(s) (remember, just one different word can make all the difference), and the feeling of immediate devaluation stings. Hard. Even if it's not intended.

But not all of us are a J.K.Rowling and just... write whatever, you know. (Her world was a gift to me as a child, but looking at her style just hurts my eyes as an adult.)

[skicoak]

So... don't.

Sorry, but I'm gonna ... over and over.

There's no logical argument anyone can make to over ride the practical realities of our field of storytelling.

Publishers make it clear in freelance rates, and people, who do both, make it clear the visual process is more time intensive. It's just factual.

A writer's/your individual passion for their process isn't the take away here... it's the practical reality of work/value divisions.

[SleepingPoppy]

And that is what I am reading between the lines every single time someone says something like that. It simply hurts. So... don't.

"writing takes less time" =/= "writing is easier"

The vast majority of the people talking about this are both writers and artists. People who genuinely understand and value both sides of the process.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Sorry, but I'm gonna ... over and over.

I'm probably butting in, but...why, though? =/

We get it: art takes a lot of time. Even just illustrating takes a long time; anyone who's tried it knows this.

But writing can also take a long time, and in different ways. Few media artists spend years on single pieces, but it's not unheard of at all for writers to spend years on their books. Who's to say all those hours spent writing and rewriting and editing and checking and researching and thinking and learning don't add up to the same amount of effort in the end?? It's hard to quantify all that goes into writing a story.

That's all people on that side of the fence are trying to say. The 'data' might say otherwise, and that's fine. But for you to look at people saying 'writing is actually pretty time-consuming, too' and insist on shutting that down just seems mean-spirited. No one is trying to publish a research paper, we just want our efforts to be recognized and appreciated, at least subjectively. Is that okay...?

[SleepingPoppy]

Few media artists spend years on single pieces, but it's not unheard of at all for writers to spend years on their books.

We're supposed to be specifically comparing writing a script to drawing the script aren't we? I don't think it makes sense to compare all art and all writing. That would make no sense. We're comic makers. We're comparing the processes of making comics.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people talking about this are specifically talking about it within the context of comics. And that distinction matters, so if I'm wrong about that, someone should tell me. XD

[Maps]

I get you. I’m sure it varies from person to person but my comic is much more time consuming for me (personally) to create but I am also much more comfortable writing than drawing and I even would say I enjoy writing more in the moment (of creating). Probably because I’m impatient and I’m slow at drawing and quick at writing lol.

And I really hope I’m not making them a contest again. I love both drawing and writing. Both are rewarding and relieving when a chapter gets put out.

[Croik]

But please, don't say that writing takes less time. It is not true, and it gives way to an attitude where writers aren't valued. I don't think any of us want to devalue the "other" side.

No one is saying that "writing", by itself, in total, as a concept, takes less time or is easier than "art." The relevant comparison here is "comic script" vs "comic art."

If you take two professionals who have both done comics before, and ask one to write THE SCRIPT, and one to draw THE ART, the art will take longer. Now maybe that won't be the case if a writer is inexperienced and the artist is a speed demon, but on a level playing field, it's a simple matter of man hours. And every hour the writer spends researching and crafting, the artist does too.

It sounds like you're comparing a comic to a novel and that's not what anyone means when they say the art takes longer. Do you write comic scripts in full prose?

[joannekwan]

Few media artists spend years on single pieces, but it's not unheard of at all for writers to spend years on their books.

That's one thing though. You can't really compare a single illustration/piece of art to a whole book. A whole book where there is a full plot with character development on top of a bunch of themes the author is trying to express.
The only thing really comparable is … comics. and so goes the round-robin argument.

[Kittosaurus]

That's all people on that side of the fence are trying to say. The 'data' might say otherwise, and that's fine. But for you to look at people saying 'writing is actually pretty time-consuming, too' and insist on shutting that down just seems mean-spirited. No one is trying to publish a research paper, we just want our efforts to be recognized and appreciated, at least subjectively. Is that okay...?

I think the issue is that two different writing styles are being compared here on this thread. Yes, for the most part comic scripts take a lot less time to write than creating the actual art. I think we have come to a general consensus on this. But there is a big difference between writing a comic script and writing an actual book. There are also different skills required, a writer doesn't necessarily have to provide the same amount of detail for a comic script then they would an actual book because an artist is going to come in and fill in the gaps.

I would also like to argue that though writing takes less time (again referring to comic scripts); that does not necessarily mean it is less valuable. To me I would equate it to the foundation of a house; yes it may be quicker to build than the rest of the house, but if you don't have a good foundation then the house is going to suffer. (Yes - I'm using that analogy but I think it holds true).

We have to create these with nothing but words

While yes, I agree that the struggle to find the right words is a challenge one could argue that the artist has nothing but brush strokes

[SleepingPoppy]

Also, and I think this is really important, we don't value art of any kind specifically on the amount of time it took to create. A book that comes out in a year is not inherently better or worse than a book that takes two. If I take longer getting ready in the morning than my sister, that doesn't mean I will leave the house prettier. A drawing done in half the time is not automatically going to have worse composition. Some degree of quality comes from time spent at a craft, but the fact that different things and people require different amounts of time is NOT A JUDGEMENT OF VALUE.