Are you an outliner or a pantser?

cherrystark 2023-09-08 17:02:10 UTC #17

I agree!!! It's like arguing the best way to learn! As long as you're learning, why does it matter? People need to learn how to write best for themselves. A lot of online people tote outlining as the only way to operate, which can leave a lot of newer writers frustrated. They need to learn their own style.

Lensing 2023-09-08 17:36:36 UTC #18

100% agree with both of you and I know some really famous comic artists / writers who are
pantsers and they reached a level of success we can only dream of

BoomerZ 2023-09-08 20:24:49 UTC #19

My point was not that one is more professional than another. Professional means you get paid, that is all. My point is writers well into knowing their craft have written themselves into corners by not having a plan. And bringing up the "writers that plan also write themselves into corners" is not an argument to make, as by planning you have a better chance of not doing that. There are special writers than can just plow ahead and write as they go, keeping track of what's going on. But that is a very small minority, a minority you are most likely not part of. Those people are also mostly seasoned writers that know what they are doing, which if you are just starting out, is not you. Don't make it harder on yourself because you think you're special and can do it another way. People did not start writing yesterday. There is a process that works. Use that process.

toonben 2023-09-08 20:48:26 UTC #20

An outliner works best for me to allow me organize my story and execute according to my plan. Pantsing can be tricky for me.

pixxiepinks 2023-09-08 21:03:48 UTC #21

Oh, I didn't know there was a word for that! I've only ever heard people talking about outlining and how important it is to make a good outline and plan before ever writing anything.

I've never liked outlining my work and often times if I force myself to outline, I don't want to write anymore. My brain and creative muses just don't work well with structure I guess. Sadly, every time I've tried to explain how writing outlines tends to hurt my creative process everyone always thinks I'm either lying or trying to bluff....

So thanks for the thread! It's super nice to know that I'm not crazy and that its okay to write the way I do.

vapidink 2023-09-08 21:33:56 UTC #22

Started out as a pantser and now-a-days I'm more of an outliner. It's just easier since I get a lot less time to write than I did back when I was a middle schooler writing fanfics. Now, when I finally sit down to write I have an idea of what to do so I get more done. I still do a mix of both now and then though.

cherrystark 2023-09-08 21:52:24 UTC #23

I only am challenging you because the way it is coming across is a "one size fits all" approach. Just because you can work efficiently with an outline doesn't mean that every writer can. I can write an outline but I can't turn that outline into a story. I've tried it for years and can't make it work. I work better when I organize my thoughts in my head and start writing. I still know where I want my story to end up; the characters' backgrounds and character arcs, and even surprise twists I want to include - they're just in my head and not stuffed into notebooks somewhere.

I say this whenever a plotter vs. panster thread comes up. People need to learn the rules of writing and how they best think/operate. THAT is the process that works.

HGohwell 2023-09-08 22:06:50 UTC #24

I think there's kinda a problem wiith defining one or the other in that most people ae some kind of mix of both, you'll very rarely have someone who's 100% no thoughts, empty head, nothing even thought of before I write, or 100% everything plotted out and character sheets to the detail and world to the detail and scene boards. Most people are somewhere on the spectrum.

I like to write like a road trip, I know my starting point and I know where I'm going and who I'm going with, and I know the stopping points along the way, but the route is a bit more unknonwn.

That said, there's a big difference between serial fiction, which lends itself to looser way of planning in many regrards but can easily become rambling and unfocused, or traditional published books who (expecailly in more traditional publishing spaces) have an editor to help you smooth things out. Of course, this doesn't stop people from having either planned a stupidly stiff book where the plan is more important than feeling natural and enjoyable, or rambling plot holes and corners. But everytime I see a professional writer or advice giver say "planning down to the smallest detail bc I tried pantsing once and wrote myself into a corner" I'm like did you not... do a second draft to work that out??? Or get betas/editors to help with that? Same with planning.

Like, these things are only really a problem if you're publishing your first draft. The problems with both style should be smoothed out in redrafting and editoing. And that's a first draft. They're supposed to be awful. And tbh, when it comes to first drafts, especailly if you're not publishing serially as you go, whatever gets it done is best.

BoomerZ 2023-09-08 22:12:12 UTC #25

This is an outline and what I'm describing when I say you need one. The small details you leave for when you are telling the story. This allows you to be spontaneous and creative, but you don't get lost. But you know the beats you need to hit, the cliff hangers you work to, and the climax to finish it up.

abigaillmartin 2023-09-09 01:39:34 UTC #26

I used to never plan anything out, but most of the time that ends up being utter chaos so now I plan ahead for what is going to happen.

I’ve had too many instances where I got stuck in my story or wrote myself into a corner and many other things.

I plan.

Mallory 2023-09-09 03:53:25 UTC #27

I'm both but I do vary how much I do of each by project.

I generally start with an outline of an idea - maybe a paragraph to a couple of pages. Then I break that down into chunks/chapters - though some chapters might be like "something super cool has to happen here to produce X result with Y emotional significance," because I just don't know YET how that's going to happen. From here, I go and write what I call the Goblin Draft, because it's literally a stream of consciousness word vomit of dialogue, visuals, and actions. In this Goblin Draft is where I let things kinda free flow and figure out those problem areas, where I couldn't figure out what I wanted to happen. I treat this Goblin Draft as wet clay, which I then heavily edit and check if the project appears to be capturing the vibes I want it to capture.

If I'm working for myself (i.e. in a webcomic or self-pub novel) I typically just begin the final project straight from the Goblin Draft and treat it as a more malleable process. I edit, thumbnail, sketch and write the final dialogue all in one step, tweaking as I go. For my "professional" workflow, i.e. project I'm trying to pitch to publishers or collaborators, I have a second cleaner draft that I write, with a proper script (which is a vastly cleaned-up Goblin Draft) and thumbnails (or placeholder paragraphs marking out the pacing, but needing further editing for voice and style). Then I edit that second draft.

I USED to take my outline and then write a more detailed spread-by-spread outline, then write a script from there, but I found it often limited my creativity and made my characters feel rigid and not super interesting to read about because they didn't offer any surprises. Goblin Draft allows for a lot more ~ spontaneity ~

Kalebell 2023-09-09 04:01:03 UTC #28

I'm a pantser when I'm writing random short stories for fun that I'm probably not going to show anyone lol. I don't think I've ever been an outliner but as I take writing more seriously I'm working on building editing and worldbuilding habits. I just find it more fun to write from the top of my head sometimes, but it's also fun to outline stories and already have all the details down.

Frogsnack 2023-09-09 04:34:40 UTC #29

I try to plan out the 'keyframes' if you will. I can't outline too much if I've not drawn the characters in their setting already, because the way they are drawn out tells me more about them. I have failed in creating characters many times because I've tried to outline them first, but if they don't work on the page in context then they don't work. I'd say now I'm always ahead by a dozen or so pages in the 'name' (Japanese word for comic sketch outline), but if it's text only I will lose the feeling of the souls of the characters and not be able to stick to the outline later (or more often, I get my best ideas while I am drawing the characters).
So does it depend on whether you are writing for a setting, a particular story, or for the characters/ worlds? To me, everything stems from the characters first. Curious about you all on that.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2023-09-09 04:36:28 UTC #30

Mostly a pantser. The outlines I've made were as the story went along, to help me keep track of what I had done so far.

Frogsnack 2023-09-09 04:37:07 UTC #31

You hit the nail on the head there for me. The 'woodenness' of the outline. Like a quick sketch feels more alive than a study of a still form. Maybe that's what I feel about outlines.

Caro 2023-09-09 05:10:17 UTC #32

Mostly a pantser but I try to do rough outlines at least. A LOT of my projects start out pantsed until I do some outlining near the end.

My most successful plot-based project was completely pantsed in its first book and was just an improvisational comic experiment where I was completely pantsing the writing and drawing, coloring (and truth be told, the character designing) four pages a day everyday and see what kind of direction these improvised characters, settings, and situations would end up story-wise. I think the reason it worked is because I have a generally good understanding of story structure and my dialogue is very snappy and strong. It was strong enough for a publisher to pick it up for a total of three books.

During my last book tour for an entirely different comic a LOT of people were asking questions about this particular comic and I told a few people that none of it was planned and people were genuinely surprised! I don’t think its a perfect story or anything but I know how to write something compelling enough and understand structure well enough that it works well and there is a lot of anticipation for the second book which I’m very excited about.

julias_art_universe 2023-09-09 05:56:22 UTC #33

Definitely an outliner. I was a punster back when I was a teenager and made comics for myself lol. Needless to say planning ahead has helped keep me on track and stop me from getting carried away bc I have some crazy ideas sometimes...

Lensing 2023-09-09 06:49:58 UTC #34

Some examples of authors who are pantsers

Diana Gabaldon, author of Outlander
Matthew Hughes, author of What the Wind Brings
George R.R. Martin, author of Game of Thrones
Isaac Asimov, author of I, Robot (and many more)
Rex Stout, author of the Nero Wolfe Series
Sally J. Ling, author of Frayed Ends and Unraveled
James Joyce, author of Ulysses
Stephen King, author of IT, Carrie, The Shining, and many more
Mark Twain, author of the Adventures Of Huckleberry Finn
Ernest Hemmingway, author of A Farewell to Arms
Dean Koontz, author of Odd Thomas
William Gibson, author of The Peripheral
Stanislaw Lem, author of Solaris
Margaret Atwood, author of The Handmaid’s Tale
Hilary Mantel, author of The Mirror and The Light
Jami Gold, author of Stone Cold Heart
Neil Gaiman, author of American Gods
David Morrell, author of Rambo
Raymond Chandler, author of The Big Sleep

I personally know pantsers, plotters and something in between
The majority of people working in the comic book industry, (in my experience),
have not everything planned.

The Marvel method is also something to look into, a lot of ideas by Stan Lee
have been changed completely by the artist who was working on it and then
adjusted later. I wouldn´t call that a plotting method

moontokkym 2023-09-09 08:30:31 UTC #35

@Lensing I was going to say Good Omens only exists because Neil Gaiman is a pantser. He wrote 1000 words on a whim about a The Omen parody and sent it around friends to see if they had any notes. A few years later Sir Terry Pratchett's asked him if he was doing anything with it and if he wanted to work together on developping it further. Had he been more of a planner things would have stopped in the notes stage and no one would have anything to read.

TheLemmaLlama 2023-09-09 10:44:40 UTC #36

Are you a planner or a panster with your writing in your comics/novels?

Tbh I think it's more helpful to think of our approach to writing on 2 axes:

top-down <---> bottom-up
linear <---> non-linear

The archetypical pantser would be bottom-up/linear while the archetypal plotter is top-down/non-linear.

I'm bottom-up/nonlinear.

I start with individual scenes and characters; I struggle to start a story with the overarching plan without it feeling 'basic'/'stereotyped'/lackluster. Hence bottom-up.

But I can't write linearly; if I try to write 'what happens next', I get stuck. This is where I differ from the archetypal pantser. I have to just write 'what happens'; whether it happens next, or at the end, or in the past, I have to just let it happen whenever it want to. This means I tend to end up with a plan relatively early on anyway as I arrange the scenes in a way that forms (the skeleton of) a cohesive whole. (But I can't make the plan without having written some scenes first, which is where I differ from the archetypal plotter)

So my comic writing process goes as follows:
1. get struck with inspiration/feels and come up with scenes
2. arrange the scenes in some order, informing the backbone of an outline
3. (simutaneous) start filling in the blanks from from the beginning, writing as much as needed (to stay ahead of my art).
3. (simultaneous) get struck with some more inspiration and come up with more future scenes that I'll have to fit into the outline
3. (simultaneous) edit the outline to improve its structure and accommodate scenes I really like (or cut them if they hurt the structure :'D), while also keeping it coherent with the part of my story that's already been 'locked in' (i.e. the parts I've already drawn)
4. repeat (3's) until story is finished

In a sense, I guess my art is also a 'timer' for how long I've got to finish my writing, because heck knows I'll never finish it otherwise XD

I'm ... uhhh ... this

Huh, I guess within that framework, I'm a 'plotter'; I do not have drafts of the entire story - I might have drafts of certain scenes, but when the whole story is written down in detail, it is finished XD

I find with processes, if you don't understand how they work then they're tedious to work with at best, and at worst doesn't actually work for you at all ^^; And sometimes the only way to truly understand a process on an intuitive level is for you to independently 'rediscover' it; for it to organically emerge from you working however you feel is most natural and observing patterns in what works and what doesn't: