Mar 2023
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Apr 2023
Apr 2023
ShidoDraws
Mar '23
1
DasIstWunderblyat

We are talking about companies set in Korea, they are quite known for being very predatory with their contracts. It's very well discussed in the K-pop industry but it's not going to stop future generations from pursuing a dream. Usually in K-pop you start with a debt, you owe the company money until you can break even with the money they spend on your debut.

With webcomics I assume it's the same thing but in the opposite order.

The sad reality is, webcomics are still new to the international majority even if you discovered webcomics back in 2014 they've been around in Korea much longer. There are industries dedicated to creating webcomics and people outside of Korea are competing to get that five second fame.

Korean companies are notorious for exploiting Thai, Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese people, that's why K-drama/K-pop was so popular. It wasn't until 2016 when other countries who weren't the targeted demographics became the targeted demographics. I mean, no shame to Brazilians who has always been interested in Asians. They are one of the saddest bunch, cause human trafficking in Korea is a thing.

I digress. Now that you know, Korea is just being Korea at least until the public here actually do something about it. But that probably won't happen since there's people who encourages you to make your own site to host your comics and then there's those who advertises that they are a indie comic hosting website (with even smaller readership base). The Internet can only be spread so thin, guys. The issue can't and won't be resolved unless every artists and writers on the internet come together to make a choice. Nothing will change in the contracts because Korea is not going to change their ways any time soon.

Edit: Also, Webtoons is millions of dollars in debt right now, I wouldn't be surprised if Tapas is already on the red too. That's when companies take desperate measures, they kick people until the place burn down. Though Korean companies do have the tendency to keep going even when their gut is telling them to stop. It's just sad honestly. It's about public image... I suppose.

candiedcotton
Mar '23
IndigoShirtProd

Either way, if they were contracted by one company that was later dissolved or bought out by another company, the contract is no longer valid because the original company does not exist, and new terms need to be implemented. Most countries have these kinds of protections and it's just common practice.

I make a living being contracted by all sorts of companies, and in the game industry, company mergers are the norm. I've never had a contract survive a merger of any companies and it always has to be rewritten (I've done this probably a dozen times at least).

It can also take a while for a contract to be fully processed, and for something like Tapas I wouldn't at all be surprised if it took that long. Or the author in question had tried their best over a lengthy period to work with Tapas before finally breaking down and saying what they said. We really don't know.

Freemints30
Mar '23
1
ShidoDraws

Pretty much what Ive been thinking.

This whole situation reminds me of tokyo pop before that company collapsed. Doubt tapas would sue cus this creator had the balls to say pirate their creation.

But yeah that weird weak ownership, signing young starry eyed creators as young at 18/19 (that's like still high school for some folks), canceling series suddenly after telling them they would be renewed for a 3rd volume. Shift in emphasis on what they assumed makes them money dispite evidence to the countrary (Tapas Korean import, wait for free... that whole thing was a disaster the google reviews), over streaching to different media to the point you wonder if they should just focus on thier comics (tapas live action tv and their attempts to get an anime by only importing series just incase of they make anime, so abandoning English speakers ). Shady contracts, crearors losing partial of thier IP. All we need is a disater of a contest and the circle would be complete

Question is how long until history repeats itself and the seemly successful facade ends (Im having doubts due to the layoff, losing their entire novel team is a red flag. Cus companies can be under going trouble but still want to expand for the sake of appearances for investors)

Kaisei
Mar '23

Has Tapas responded publicly at all? (in general, not necessarily about this specific contract?)

As someone who gives money to Tapas precisely so that they can pay artists, writers, translators, and editors; I want some assurance that they are acting more ethically than pirates.

If you can afford it, it's generally a good idea to hire a legal agent to read over contracts because legalese is difficult to understand and you can bet that the company has their own legal team. However, individuals (in this case, writers and artists) are often not in a position to negotiate better terms. They may realize the terms are unfair but acknowledge that they won't get opportunities if they don't accept the terms. In an ideal world, companies wouldn't offer predatory terms in the first place.

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Mar '23

Now that I’ve cleared what I’m about to type isn’t violating any NDAs or so forth I can say that:

A time ago I was made aware that Tapas was seeking writers for some IPs they (Tapas themselves) were developing. One of them was a romance and this is what I believe miqin to have applied to. I had considered applying myself but I was not as confident in my mass market writing anywho …

The next is all speculative:
I’m confident that any contracted work, artist, writer, etc. get advances from Tapas to produce an agreed amount of episodes, like “we’ll pay you $Y for writing or drawing X episodes”. I believe getting any split of revenue share, through ads or ink unlocks, is more of a bonus thing and that would be negotiated at the initial contract.

Now I don’t know how involved miqin got with developing plot and characters or if she just wrote dialogue from an outline that Tapas gave her. But I think if she was under-compensated for that it would have been included in her post. The main gripe is the cancelation of residual revenue in perpetuity which is apparently negotiable. It still sucks not to get the additional revenue, but I would think the initial wages were paid.

thepenmonster
Mar '23
hakei

Unless the company is dealing with something that can put the public at risk, NDAs exist solely to suppress the information that the company is up to some shady shit.

This is 100% true. Source- Currently living and working in Korea.

My boss is cool, but I've had to rewrite the bog-standard EFL form contract a few times because no one ever thinks about them as anything more than a formality.

Caro
Mar '23

This is a great opportunity for folks to start thinking about their contract literacy. Contracts across the board regardless of the industry tend to be in language that can be difficult for a layman to understand.

I think a major major thing people don’t understand and NEED to understand about contracts is that they are there to be negotiated. Its almost always a terrible idea to take a contract at its first draft. I’ve taken months to negotiate contracts both on my own and with a lawyer and it is a very normal thing to do.

I negotiated the heck out of my first contract with Webtoon to protect my IP. To date, I still own all of my stuff with everyone I’ve worked for aside from when I’ve been contracted to design for pre-existing IPs. You don’t need to sign contracts on the spot and you can argue for your rights and move on if they can’t offer what you need.

Cavechan
Mar '23
joannekwan

I appreciate you bringing up another perspective, but this is still not okay. I don't think artists are entitled to special treatment or anything, but artists and creators shouldn't have revenue share pulled out from under the rug like this. It's like the Demon Slayer rumor that the creator may have been paid as low as US$20,000 and isn't making a cent more from the franchise despite it being a worldwide success of hundreds of millions of dollars.

When we see this happen, I think it's very beneficial for the community to bring it up and discuss it as a whole because this is the best way we can prevent shady contracts from continuing.

And yeah maybe some 18-19 year olds will accept the contracts even knowing that they are predatory and not getting a good deal but doing it for "their dream" but I believe many will quickly realize that the amount of work they have to input is not at all even close to what they SHOULD be compensated.

At the end of the day, these companies are just unreliable and not a good way to make a living creating comics, for me at least. That's why I personally am building up other opportunities for myself to help support my comic creating.

@Caro Absolutely! Spot on.

Zugaikotsu
Mar '23
ShidoDraws

Kakao is worse than WT, according to their latest investor reports. No wonder they are literally robbing people. (Yeah dont bother to come with this "mememe there is more we don't know", or "Aye read ya contract buh buh buh" you'll be ignored as hair in a man's chest.

Zugaikotsu
Mar '23
Cavechan

Totally support this. We have to keep being loud about these things, otherwise they'll just try to replicate their abusive practices in other countries, or keep sucking the souls of their native employees/contractors in silence.

cherrystark
Mar '23

I just want to put it out there that this phenomenon isn't just unique for comic creators. This also happens to web novelists. There are a lot of platforms who pray on writers and steal their IP and the rights for future work for little to no money. Be careful everyone!

hakei
Mar '23
Zugaikotsu

I've never heard this saying and it's amazing the impact and the visuals I get from that short phrasing alone.

Ladyofbirds
Mar '23

It is sad that this kind of thing is happening on Tapas, I thought this place was suppose to be more creator friendly. And it reminds me that Webtoon has also sometimes not treated authors well.

Katzalcoatl
Mar '23

It still is. You should read all the ToS and contracts from other sites. Like yikes.... some websites take your IP just from you posting on them. :sweat_smile:

The lesson is... don't read only contracts read the ToS as well before joining a site.

Another example of predatory websites is webnovel. Their contracts require novelists to post 1.5k words per day for a maximum of $200 USD per month. You lose all royalties of merch/future works and you can't post elsewhere.
Basically, you have to write 1 whole book per month for only $200 USD.

Freemints30
Mar '23

Im saying if this keeps up there wouldn't be much a difference between tapas and those other sites, cus that's their competition, predatory sites that's are even wors. And business exces tend to have a similar mindsets when they are more buisness out of touched with of how the general public is
Which is sad thou.

Zugaikotsu
Mar '23
Katzalcoatl

Oh, which sites are these??? We need all protection we can :eyes:

Katzalcoatl
Mar '23
1

The sites are mostly from places that didn't sign the international copyright conventions.
Others do everything they can to give you "benefits" but those benefits are basically by giving them your IP or by giving them exclusivity. ToS are tricky.
Some ToS prevent you from taking certain legal actions against the site.

You can still bring legal action against the site but it all depends on the laws of your state (if you live in the US) or the laws of your country.

My cousin unknowingly signed or more like accepted not being able to sue an international company that had a Ponzi Scheme. It also had many downsides which I forgot when I read it I couldn't beleive it. She basically lost all her money she had invested and she agreed, unkowingly, to do many things for the company. (Just remembered that one of those things was to sell a minimum amount per month and if she didn't she had to use her own money)

I do not have a list of all sites that are predatory but I do have a link explaining some of them. https://writerunboxed.com/2022/06/24/reading-between-the-lines-the-predatory-contracts-of-serial-reading-writing-apps/2
It is hard to pinpoint companies with these practices as most are unknown in general while others don't apply to comic/novel creators instead they apply to programmers and other type of creators (if you want to see it that way).
I once refused a job offer from a trustworthy company for the sole reason that if the employee invented something then said employee would get the patent under their name but all royalties would be given to the company. The company had a decent pay but I don't think it's fair that they stay with all your royalties for a code/machine you made while you only got the patent in "name" only but with 0 benefits.

Returning to topic, like I mentioned before many things in ToS aren't legal while others are but it all depends on the laws of your local residence. If you do accept all ToS then you will have to hire a lawyer to see if you can get out of any legal binding you may be subjected to.

But overall I recommend saving your money and time (if the company is international without offices in the US then you are fighting a battle with no winners) by simply reading all ToS and investigating the site before posting anything of your intelectual property.

That's the tricky part of international companies especially online. Even if you want to sue them it could take months or even years and there is no gurantee that you will win the case as there is no international police.

Zugaikotsu
Mar '23

Oh, I see! Thank you for all the info! Well, for novels, Ive already seen the contract for many and Webnovel eats even your moral rights, and Goodnovel even illustrations you hse for covers and etc. Kakao is going the same route.

For comics, Lezhin claims all rights over anything you submit to them without asking. Probably they wrote this to avoid people pointing fingers if a series appears there with a similar premise of your pitch, but still, always good to be wary.

1 month later

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