Christian Themes and Thought Provocation

[mjmassey]

It is my understanding, through my research, that there are different branches of Wicca who worship various different things. The Wiccas I'm working with worship nature and the balance of natural forces. Though there are some branches that deal with demonology at their core, just as there are other branches that have spellcrafting at their core. It's very fascinating.

[eagle1]

I'm going to do something I don't normally do here. I am going to reply directly to the OP before I read the rest of the thread.

No, most webcomics are missing a theme, so they are not going to make you think too deeply, if at all. One of my pet peeves, but it's the nature of the beast at the current time. Please, do your part to change that.

That being said, while a moral of a story is a type of theme, a theme should be used to make people think, not to preach to them, or make them think the way you do. Atlas Shrugged is a good example of a story that let it's theme hijack the story (I still like it, but that's it's main shortfall).

Each of my titles have a theme, but it's part of the story, not something I am using to preach or teach. The one that is getting posted here, The Shadow War, has a theme that's kind of buried, and isn't obvious to the reader yet. It won't be until the second issue, and that's months away at one page every week or two.

Yes, I have enjoyed Christian books (not comics) such as the Narnia books. I have enjoyed Christian based comics such as Kingdom Come, but for the most part, Christian based comics seem to be aimed at conversion/propaganda, which means I quit reading as soon as it interferes with the story and my enjoyment.

I'm Wiccan, and a character in one of my titles that someone else is drawing recently ran into a problem. The artist is Christian, and didn't want to draw the pentagram on the character's floor. This required some re-write on my part (which actually improved the story), so sometimes you will inadvertently drive someone away from your story with a portrayal of religion. For that reason, the only non-fictional religion left in my world is the Catholic Church, and that's only due to needing specific parts of their history for major plot points.

So do your's, and do it the way you want, but be sure that it's not lame, preachy, and that it's showing Christian values, not trying to convert non-Xians.

Eagle
(Now to read the other 20 messages in the thread)

[eagle1]

@NagashiKhan - Wicca is also known as Witchcraft, or just The Craft. It does not involve demons in any way, shape, or form. It is a nature based religion who's primary teaching is the Reede, which is stated as "And it harms none, do as you will". The Wiccan cosmology allows for malicious spirits, but not for Satan, hell, or demons. As a side note, Wicca and Witch probably both derive from an ancient anglo-saxon word of Witan, which was both the name of the King's council, and a word descirbing any "wise one". It was simply the prevailing belief system at the time, and had to be, pardon the pun, demonised by the Church in order to be eradicated. Wiccans, by the way, refer t this as "The Burning Times" since church records show over 9 million Europeans (mostly women) put to death during this time.

As to the feasability of a Catholic demon hunter team working with a Wiccan team doing the same thing, absolutely. It works from my point of view, and I'm subscribing to Vatican Assassins over on Comic Rocket while I am writing this. It looks like it has the same elevator pitch as a comic I have partially written (that's not a bad thing, Deep Impact and Armageddon were the same elevator pitch, but very different movies in tone and plot) called The Templars Three. I've spent about 6 years doing the research on it, and a few other things.
But no, Wiccans would be just as eager to see demons put down as anyone else.

@mjmassey, I've been Wiccan for over 20 years. The definition of a Wiccan is someone who worships/acknowledges the Lord and Lady, follows the Reede, and harnesses the natural energy called Magick. That's the only definition, and there are thousands of traditions (which is what a Wiccan sect is called) within that, but it would be impossible to follow the Reede and demonlogy at the same time. I'm a Solitary (not a member of a Coven by choice), but I've been part of the community for 2/3rds of my adult life, and those few Wiccans who believe in demons (they just aren't part of the Wiccan cosmology) would not engage in Demonology. Those that do can call themselves anything they want, but they are no more Wiccan than someone who believes in Christ and engages in Demonology is a Christian.

I'm not trying to start a religious flame war here, nor am I trying to impune any religion, just trying to correct a few misconceptions that are comic related. Please, if there is disagreement, I would be happy to take this to PM, rather than disrupt an otherwise positive thread.

Eagle
(I normally don't discuss my religion, but this seemed like a good place for it)

[mjmassey]

@eagle1 No no, that is very insightful! Thank you for sharing! I find other religions fascianting, and all the better if I can get a first person perspective. Please feel free to tell me if I have misrepresented anything incorrectly! I love constructive feedback.

[eagle1]

I've added it to my reading list. Today, I am working on Damsels Don't Wear Glasses, Dresden Codak, and A Game of Roleplay (Gaming meets Game Of Thrones). But your's looks interesting, and I like the genre, so I will get to it, and comment.

Most people's opinion on religions that they are not raised in comes from the media, which is one reason why realistic portrayals of people of religion are important. On the other end of that scale is making sure that the story does not come across as preachy, or putting down other faiths.

Eagle
(And that's part of why I chimed in on this thread)

[NagashiKhan]

@eagle1 @mjmassey The point I was making wasn't from an outside perspective, it was more directed from the perspective of the Catholic belief- which, I admit I'm not a master in, but for the most part I'm pretty sure Catholics have pretty similar beliefs of Christians, wherein the understanding of Wicca is that it is derived from demons.

What I MEAN is, in the Christian faith we believe that there is only two kinds of supernatural beings- Angels and Demons (outside of God obviously). Now, if Wicca is just a religion about worshiping nature, then whatever, that's fine and good and that's that, whatever. Cool. But, if those who practice Wicca actually, really, seriously channel any kind of supernatural force, if it's not Angelic, it's Demonic. I mean this in literal terms, this isn't some weird fictional lore.

That being said, it's all fine and good if your story doesn't portray Wicca this way, however you perceive magick is however you perceive it. That's fine. However, if the point of the comic is to express religious themes according to Catholicism, then doesn't it contradict the beliefs of Catholics that a Wiccan team would use the powers of Demons to fend of demons? Jesus was accused of using the power of Demons, and He said that a kingdom that betrays itself does not stand. So, the real question is, what is the Catholic belief in regards to magick? That was my real confusion- my understanding of Wicca certainly does not deride from the media, I'll attest to that much. =P Thank you for your portion on that subject though, Mister Eagle.

Now, just for the sake of clarity and disclaiming and all that, I will state that this ain't a religion war, I'm only postulating questions from the perspective of those who believe as such, I'm not saying you gotta believe the same thing. By all means, have your point of view, I'm not infringing on that.

@TristanJensen Yeah, I'm talking story, not retelling the Bible. Retelling the Bible is probably the most common Christian Comic idea, and it almost always sucks. Scythe mentioned earlier a REALLY cool example of a GOOD retelling, but that person stopped posting. So that's a wall we've hit.

I've heard of God's Not Dead, and while I didn't see it, by your promotion I can tell it was probably good. However, dat's a mobie. ^^ Albeit a good comic idea, and one that I'm soooooorta considering for future manga ideas- accounting a tale of a kid who becomes a Christian in today's society, which is... well. Not so encouraging for a young Christian, especially in certain countries. I think that's the direction where Heil! is going, which Sugar Fiend so helpfully pointed out earlier, but even then I'm not sure where it's going exactly.

But even outside of Christian or religious themes, I think the idea of getting a reader to think is also scarce! There is one example that, since the conception of this thread, has shown up and done a good job of getting readers to think- The Big D, who very much so encourages readers to "think". I say "think" this way because, while he does encourage thought, he also includes some... biased premises, which I don't entirely agree with and brings a sort of a preachy aspect, which is what pretty much ever person on this thread agrees is annoying and should be avoided. ^^

Oh well. We'll see if more comics with Christian themes or, even rarer, thought promotion, pop up. =D I hope they do. Comics are just as useful a medium as videos, movies, books, music or videogames.

[eagle1]

@NagashiKhan, thanks for the reply. Wiccans don't use anything supernatural. The energy that surrounds everything is natural, and everyone uses it everyday. It's the same energy that let's you know when someone is staring at you, that let's you meet someone's eyes across a room, and that let's you feel the tension in the room just before the fight kicks off. We call it magick, but there's noting anymore mysterious about it than that. It's funny, there was a book out a few years back called The Secret, and all it was was an instruction manual on how to use that energy through the power of focused thinking and visualisation. Magic in movies is supernatural in basis, what Wiccans do is merely our version of prayer, meditation, and visualisation using the energy that everyone already uses in their everyday life.
That, by the way, makes for interesting plot points in @mjmassey's story.

Eagle
(the 'vibes' you get off someone is just you reading that energy)

[RiverKai]

Wait...Zero comics here explore real ideas? I'm confused...

[NagashiKhan]

Explore ideas in the sense that the main objective is to explore things. I'd say "educational' but that's not really what I mean, more like an example.

I mean, all good stories explore ideas, that's a given. I mean, really, really take the nitty gritty and purpose the comic to opening it and exploring it, whether abstractly or directly. Examples of what I mean are The Big D and my own Why, Though?, where [most] episodes are geared toward presenting a concept or idea or question or problem and leading thought about it, whether by narrative or by outright exposition. Does that make sense?

It's possible that my wording in the original question is a little weird, granted this is an old thread. ^^

[RiverKai]

Hmm yes that makes more sense! I see, sorry for the confusion then!

[Jimbo]

http://tapastic.com/episode/33437

based very loosely . . .

why not just tell the real story?

[scythe]

Because the Bible already did that, I guess.

[keac]

Actually, if you wanna publish it, just do it!
Personally, I wanna publish a comic about it too, but not too much Bible-related. Because, all people have different beliefs. But then I realized that why not give it a try? Good luck with your comic though!

Oh, and I read a Christian-comic before and I think it was great! I'm not quite sure about the title.

Dunno, as an Evangelical here, I personally liked it.

[Jimbo]

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.

Revelations 22:19

[scythe]

Well, I can't speak for whoever wrote that comic, but for me personally, I'll take my chances.

[Wishjacked]

I feel your pain, OP. My first comic was very introspective and while it wasn't religion-based (it was a murder mystery, where the murder had nothing to religion, ha) and out of the 5 main cast members, one was a practicing Christian, three couldn't care less about their spiritual lives, and one was an atheist... and I used those facts in the story a lot.

One thing I noticed about making that comic is that introspective comics in general are really hard to make. You want to avoid talking heads, but it makes it difficult to have introspective conversations. Mostly I was doing showing instead of telling (the theme was how desire for revenge will tear you apart), so I was trying to show how these people's obsession with revenge was tearing their lives apart... but dang, it is hard! The comic I'm doing now, which is for my siblings and has a distinct lack of anything thoughtful, is much, much easier. Webcomic creators are doing this all in their spare time, and so we tend to have to keep it as simple as possible.

In response to your other question, no, I very rarely enjoy Christian media. I don't think I've ever found an explicitly Christian comic that I enjoyed. It sucks, because I love Christianity a lot (I was a Benedictine novice for a year... I mean, I REALLY LOVE IT!) That said, my favorite book series is C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy.

The main problem with Christian media is that, yeah, it's all propaganda. Let's be serious here, guys: for centuries Christians were creating amazing music and amazing art and amazing literature for no reason than that they loved God. And now people create "Christian" stuff not because they love God, but because they want to sell Christianity to the masses. The focus is all wrong.

[Doubtcent]

You hit the nail right on the head @misshoneyham
Christianity has become more of a selling point to "Christians". It doesn't have to be all that creative, it just has to be "Oh yeah, I like God and stuff" and it becomes the source of flocking, meaning everyone who has this one trait might as well be a part of it just because it has that one minority trait.

But if you knew Christ's heart, he said (I don't remember where, so don't quote me unless you can find it too) don't tell anyone after doing any miracle. Simply, he wanted to be subtle, he wanted to be an example, and not an "in your face" evangelist. That goes for any good "Christian" media. You don't have to be in anyone's face about Christ or Christianity or the fact that "You're going to Hell if you don't". I really despise that.

Being a believer, I want to help change the industry, both comics and "Christian" comics. I'll just write and draw, and show my beliefs through example, not by shoving it down people's throats.

[infectedbloodcomics]

You mean, soon you will be shoving it down people's throats?
(That was a joke - just in case)

[crow]

Well, this thread caught my eye.

I... am unsure if this is what you are looking for, but I am a atheist writing a comic with some fairly overt religious themes, including christian ones (mostly because it deals with gods and one of the main characters is a christian.) I'm kind of fascinated by religion and religious thought as a whole, so, uh, if you would like an outsider's take on it, I guess I can sheepishly raise my hand.

It's more narrative driven, though. Looking at your example it looks like your looking for more encapsulated thought experiments (thinking of that "Why, Though?" link in particular.) then the more surrealistic thing I'm doing. Still, I thought I'd share since this is something I am genuinely interested in.

[andychrist]

I don't know if this is a recent development but it's always seemed to me there's a big divide between "CHRISTIAN" media and media that happens to have Christian themes.

In other words, The Chronicles of Narnia is a great story from a Christian's point of view. C.S. Lewis did not set out to nurture anyone's biases, make money off of religious people, or convert anyone. He just wanted to write a good story and who he was came through in the text.

Christian movies, music, and comics that get made these days are designed to push an agenda first and foremost, always at the expense of making the material actually good. Stuff like God's Not Dead or anything Kirk Cameron's made in the last twenty years has a built-in audience of people who will see it to have their biases confirmed. They also get tied up in gross political agendas that have more to do with specifically capitalist American Christian ideals, which are outright harmful to society and have little to nothing to do with actual Christianity.

I should probably come clean at this point and say I'm a non-believer who writes a satirical religious horror comedy called Andy Christ. I may not be the source you're looking for but my advice would be this: Don't start writing anything with the goal to "make people think." This is a mistake I've made a couple times myself and if you look at my comics, I think you can tell where I stopped making a conscious effort to do that and just be funny and let the story happen. People are insulted when they feel preached at. If you're a good writer, whatever you're trying to say will come through in smarter, more subtle ways, and it WILL make people think. But it's one of those things that if it's your goal, you shoot yourself in the foot.

Don't bill your comic as "Christian" because you don't know what kind of positive or negative assumptions people are going to project onto it. Like it or not, America has made "Christian" into a very politically charged word. An evangelical looking for a Christian comic and finding yours may be upset if you've got nothing to say about the evils of gay marriage and the war on Christmas. Others might see that your comic is "Christian" and skip it for the exact opposite reason; they may assume you'll be pushing that nonsense.

I also don't think you'd want to limit yourself to an audience of only Christians. The fact of the matter is if you strip Christianity of all its mythology and modern politics, you're left with a pretty decent set of philosophies for being a decent human being. Its values are largely universal, love thy neighbor, judge not, etc. You could write an entire story and never once use the words "Jesus" or "Christian" and still end up with a Christian story without alienating anybody or pushing an agenda.