Criticism Vs "Criticism"

[Chocolate]

Hey guys!
Okay, I know I'll probably get a lot of heat for this but here is my two cent when it comes to giving criticism for comics and art. I notice that some artist get offended if their viewers gives their real thoughts/feelings when are being asked for their "real" opinion. In opposition to that, comments such as "oh, this is nice" and "job well done" are receive more positively. How is this any better than "this suck" and "stop drawing"? It's this kind of respond and negativity from the artist that prevent me from giving them my honest opinion. Sometimes, I don't even feel the need to comment on the artist's work when I have the general idea of how they will response if I stated something other wise.

Idk, but what are you guys feeling on giving criticism? Do you often state the truth or prefer to be modest and nice about giving criticism? Do you guys agree or disagree or agree to disagree? : P

[apocryphagraphics]

This just happened to me yesterday. A guy asked for opinions on his art and I said that certain elements distracted me from the story and he called me stupid. Somehow my honest opinion wasn't "constructive" enough.

[ifluke1]

Its safer to say nothing and smile then make an enemy

[Wishjacked]

I've received criticism in the past and as an artist with a fragile ego it is hard to take. There's always the inevitable feeling of "well, maybe my art actually sucks and this person is the only one nice enough to tell me". I think there's a fine balance. We as artists want feedback, and we want it to be positive. I always keep my critiques for people I know and love, who already know me and know that I'm crazy about their art. When I comment on strangers' art, I usually comment on one thing they did well: "you've got a good handle on color choices!" or "I like how smooth and confident your lineart is!" or whatever. Sure, it isn't as helpful as critiquing. But it's more helpful than just "wow your art is pretty!" Sigh.

[fishy]

EDIT: OK I didn't read the first part properly but the second part is kinda confusing. I think the difference between a comment that says 'this is nice' vs 'this sucks' is obvious. Yes, both are vague, but at least one person is saying they enjoy your work.
I think it's inevitable we get lots of vague comments like 'this is nice' since not everyone is an artist. We might like something bc it has great colour scheme, composition ect but not everyone looks for that. It just looks like nice art.

Some artists do get protective over their work, and it is unfortunate since the grim reality is there may always be room for improvement. I think I'm a bit of a harsh critic, and even then, I may simply don't like a certain comic bc of their style or genre. But on the flipside, that could be the same reason to love a comic. I don't give criticsms unless explicitly asked, but I do enjoy to be modest and nice on comics I relatively enjoy, it's always nice to get a bit of encouragement.

[elixiadragmire]

well, opinion and constructive criticism are two very different beasts!

'this sucks' and 'stop drawing' are an opinion whereas 'I can see the concept you were trying to go for but the composition is off making it unreadable' or ' I can tell you excited about this project but it's lacking focus at the moment' are constructive criticism.

With someone else an opinion, you can do NOTHING with it, its theirs, they're entitled to have it but it doesn't reflect on you or aid you in anyway. A constructive criticism however, someone has taken time to probe you work and point out technical flaws and offer advice on how to correct the issue

Also compliment such as ' I love it' and 'good job' are more constructive as they encourage the artist to keep positive, pursuing and learning their craft

[PotooGryphon]

It's this kind of respond and negativity from the artist that prevent me from giving them my honest opinion.

Maybe private messaging will be better received? Perhaps some artists get embarrassed of the criticism being public, maybe they feel it's pointing out their flaw for all to see?, idk other reason. Maybe approaching them through a private message and asking if they're open to constructive feedback will help lower their defenses.

Personally, I'm open to it. Constructive criticisms are useful nuggets someone is offering to help better the art/story.

It's only when the criticism turns to hate/rude/mean where it gets ugly. However, even those type of comments can be handled with tact, and often flip the hater into a reader.

Ex. Criticism/Opinion- "Looks nice but I'll probably unsubscribe later because the plot sucks"
Artist Response- "Sorry you don't like it, it's not for everyone! Thanks for stopping by."

Something like that may come across a little customer service-y however, 9 times out of 10 rude commenters apologize and turns them into a reader.

My final thoughts, criticisms are a mixed bag of helpful or hateful and the artist's receptions (justifiably so) are also a mixed bag of defensive or accepting. If artists are able to put aside their own insecurities, not take things so personal, and put on a customer service face every once in a while, they'll probably be able to take and respond more aptly to either kind of criticism.

[niinasalmelin]

I like giving criticism, but only if I know that the person is not getting overly offended, because he/she was only looking for compliments. So I usually give my thoughts to some fellow artists I know personally or who I have seen taking it well. So I just pick my battles very carefully.

However, I think that if you put your works for people to see, you should be prepared for the moment when someone says they don't like it and not just pull out the "don't like don't look!" -card when it happens. Also the "If you don't have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" is one of the most poisonous "advise" out there.

[noxfox]

This just happened to me yesterday. A guy asked for opinions on his art and I said that certain elements distracted me from the story and he called me stupid. Somehow my honest opinion wasn't "constructive" enough.

Well, if you're talking about this thread, opinion was:

I find it jarring visually that no one has a nose. Is this a manga thing?

I think this falls into what @elixiadragmire is pointing out here:

'this sucks' and 'stop drawing' are an opinion whereas 'I can see the concept you were trying to go for but the composition is off making it unreadable' or ' I can tell you excited about this project but it's lacking focus at the moment' are constructive criticism.

Time ago we had a discussion, with some of the artists here, about whether we should welcome any sort of feedback, including this kind of opinions that the artist can do absolutely nothing about. I personally don't condone comments like:

• "The plot sucks so much."
• "Ugh, another manga thing, you're so ruining the story with that style."
• "I really hate the colors."

While they can be honest opinions, they are completely omitting one thing: the person receiving it is a human being with feelings, a person who put a lot of energy into creating their artwork, and gathered in themselves the courage to show it to the Internet, to face judgement. Now, facing judgement does not mean you should accept to get bashed. It's like telling a girl "you know, if you wear a skirt, you'll get objectified by men so deal with it, it's normal and ok that men treat you like an object and you should probably be thankful that they even look at you."
That's not how it works when you want to call yourself civilised. Respect is a thing, so opinions should be phrased respectfully, like:

• "I was attracted to your series by the art style, which is pretty nice, but the plot doesn't seem to live up to my expectations. I find it a bit weak. There are good ideas, but maybe you would benefit from teaming up with a writer?"
• "I hope you don't take it personally, but I really have an issue with manga, which is quite frustrating me because this story looks quite good actually. There's nothing you can do about it, but if you ever see me around again, you'll know for sure that your story gotta be really good to drag me back to it."
• "I don't mean to upset you, but there's something about the colors that makes my reading uncomfortable. Maybe they're too bright, or too constrasted, I don't know, but it's really distracting me from the story. I don't know if there's anything you can/want to do about it."

It's not that hard to be kind. Just because the person isn't in front of you and can't punch you if you go too far doesn't mean it's ok to talk to them like they're just a thing. You don't know if they're happy or depressed, if they're cool with criticism or not yet ready to take it all. It's best to ask before bringing up negative things, especially if you don't have a constructive suggestion.

I agree with @CyndiFoster that artists do benefit from being able to take criticism without being too defensive, but it's also something they have to learn, so meeting halfway -- a kind criticizing for a more accepting reception -- is probably something we can ALL work for, no matter on which side we stand.

[UndefinableCreature]

They asked for opinions. If they can't handle it, its their issue. If you ask something, you're either looking to improve, or looking for external validation and praise.
If you want to improve, you wouldn't feel offended at all, because if their opinion is somehow, illogical, you see it as "its" not going to help you improve so why bother getting affected by it.
Now, if you're looking for validation, thats a whole other story.

[niinasalmelin]

Okay, this isn't even my business but how in the world is "I find the lack of noses jarring" comparable to "your art sucks/stop drawings"? Nothing was cruel in that comment. I'm sorry but for me this is just ridiculous.

[apocryphagraphics]

That's not cruel. That's a legit constructive criticism he can take or leave. When I read his comic I was very distracted by the human characters having no noses. It took me out of the story. I think his art and story would be better served by not having such a distracting element. He can ignore that if he wants. It's his party. It's absurd you think that's too cruel.

[noxfox]

They asked for opinions. If they can't handle it, its their issue. If you ask something, you're either looking to improve, or looking for external validation and praise.If you want to improve, you wouldn't feel offended at all,

You've never been depressed? Doubting yourself because of anxiety and not because of actual reasons? I'm personally an anxious person and even though my series is quite successful for what it is, sometimes makes it to Trending or Popular, has nice fans following... well, sometimes I doubt myself, feel like shit, and get paranoid about whether I'm doing things right or not with my story. It's often very irrational because anxiety is not a rational thing, and so if I start getting bullshit comments in those moments, I might get hurt right when I'm vulnerable and fail to dismiss them as just bullshit. Thankfully I very rarely get this kind of comments (maybe got 1 or 2 per year?) but I can empathize to other creators.

When looking for improvement, yeah, you should be prepared to deal with potential bullshit, but that can take some training. I think people of the Internet need to get more responsible about what they say, no matter they criticize or receive, and I can get that it's hard when you haven't been educated to this kind of communication... that's why it's probably not good to take for granted that "they ask for it, they can take it". Sometimes people ask for something they think they can take. Turns out they can't. Better be careful on both sides.

I know for myself that I'm a blunt person, I have emotional-blindness so it makes communication harder. But I don't just accept to be like that and ask people to deal with it: I get very cautious, I do my best not to offend when criticizing, and most of the time this works great. I make a fair critique and get a fair reception =)

That's not cruel. That's a legit constructive criticism he can take or leave.

I think I missed the constructive part. You voiced an opinion, you didn't make suggestions, and the first version (before you started to actually explain why it was a problem for you --which you could have done in the first place) was very blunt and devoid of empathy. I don't think you're a stupid person, but this one reaction wasn't the finest thing you could have done. I'm sure you can do better, really, because you did it 2 posts later
(also I don't mean to offend or attack you, I hope my criticism on your behavior isn't too harsh, I'm sorry if it's a bit blunt)

[apocryphagraphics]

@noxfox, the obvious solution is to draw noses if he agrees with me. I don't need to spoon feed that to him. I'm not cruel for assuming he's not a blithering idiot. I explained in my post that I found it visually jarring. That's the truth. Some of us prefer an economy of words.

[UndefinableCreature]

I completely understand what you mean.
I deal with my depression, logically.
People may like a story but ultimately what matters most is the content, the meaning behind it.
A story is an expression of thought or/and feeling. If you don't feel your story is good, due to anxiety, take a break. Recognise that your current state is taking over. If there is a logical reason to doubt yourself, then figure out what it is. People don't know what they like. They see something different, they like it, they see something else more unique, they like it too. As an artist, you shouldn't feel the need to please everyone.
Instead, you should feel a need to share your insights.

Unfortunately, you cannot control what comes out of people's mouth.
You can be humble and move on if its illogical.
Its all within your control.
Thats just how I see it.

Btw, I'm a fan of Singmire Haze.

[novakillustration]

All I really have to add to the conversation is this:

Speaking as someone who has worked professionally in the arts for a decent amount of time, at some point, as an artist, you'll be forced to grow a bit of a thick skin when it comes to your work. I was actually pretty sensitive about it when I was younger. When I got to college I had a professor that would literally knock our work off the wall and onto the floor if he thought it wasn't any good.

Obviously, at the time I thought he was a bit of a jerk.

Since then, I realize it was one of the most helpful things I learned in college. People aren't always nice in the real world (especially in business). It can be blunt, and hurtful, and the more you make something that people are going to actually see, the more you open yourself up to comments, both good and bad. It's unavoidable.

Xanax helps.

Just learning to roll with the punches helps a lot more.

[apocryphagraphics]

Yesterday a guy told me he thought my lines were a little too thick and that my comic was a bit too "wordy". That is absolutely constructive criticism. It implies that he believes my work would be better with finer lines and a less exposition. He doesn't have to wrap that up in a big bag of sugar for me. I asked him what he thought and I thank him for his honesty.

[apocryphagraphics]

When I got to college I had a professor that would literally knock our work off the wall and onto the floor if he thought it wasn't any good.

Yikes. It's true. When we put our stuff out there for public consumption there are going to be people who don't dig it and some will tell you about it. It's a part of life as an artist.

[shazzbaa]

I think if someone ASKS, and you give them your honest answer, and they are defensive or rude, I'm really sorry -- you did the best you could. :/ The most you can do is just make a mental note not to bother next time they ask. (As an aside, if they DID NOT ASK, then you really should've asked if they were looking for critique!)

I think there's a place here for discernment, though. If someone says "Hey guys, here's the first chapter, tell me what you think!!!" that might... not actually be asking for critique. That might be someone who wants you to comment if you liked it or if the chapter left you with thoughts and questions -- because so many readers don't think to comment saying "I really liked this!" It NEVER hurts to ask, "hey, when you said you were looking for feedback/opinions/whatever, would critique be helpful or are you not really looking for that right now?"

Another thing to remember is that a lot of artists are not taught that it's okay to not be ready for critique. They think that not seeking critique would make them a bad artist, that they HAVE to. So there will be people who ask, because they think they're supposed to, but they're not ready for it when they hear it. It sucks, and it sucks to get a defensive response when you have taken the time to give someone your careful thoughts, but give a little bit of grace, if you can. :<

The advice I'd give to artists would be different. I would talk to them about handling inevitable harsh comments and how to deal with critique that isn't kind, because it's going to be there. I would tell them you don't have to listen to critique you didn't ask for, but you should still consider it, and it's good to respond politely (even if it's a polite "I'm not looking for critique right now, but thank you!") But I think it's weird to say to an artist "some people are going to be rude, try to deal with that" and to say to a commenter "therefore, be as rude as you want."
If you're frustrated that your critique isn't being taken well, and want to figure out how to change that, then I think the best way would be to save your critique for those who are REALLY seeking critique, and to do your best to learn how to be cautious and discern who's REALLY seeking critique.

[shazzbaa]

Oh, and as an aside, the difference between "I like this" and "this sucks" is: I don't need to know if someone didn't like it. 5 billion people on this earth didn't like my comic and thus didn't read it, and they don't all need to tell me so. I want to know about the people I am reaching, though! Reaching people is a big reason why I make art. :")