49 / 76
Jan 2020

No one, obviously! It's a hypothetical example of a bogus explanation based on all of the ones that I've seen, the ones that I JUST SAID l used to form this GENERAL argument.

Dude, if you prefer to believe that I'm lying, fine, but I feel I should warn you that you're gonna have a hard time proving it. When I want to call out a specific writer, or the creative team responsible for a specific body of work, I do it. I've done it before, several times.

The reason I didn't do it here is because I simply DO NOT HAVE that information. This is an opinion piece, nothing more. You can accept that, or you can continue looking for things that aren't there.

lol

At least we agree on one thing today.

Yes, that happens to everyone. It is then up to the person affected to either ignore that or throw an attention seeking hissy fit. That depends entirely on the maturity level of each individual.

I mean it does also depend on other things relevant to the situation. If we are talking about a depiction that puts a group of people back in terms of the rights, freedom and respect they earn from people at large, then it's not just a matter of choosing to either ignore it or be "immature".

Let's not forget certain attitudes are straight up dangerous. Women are being harrassed, injured or killed every day for not giving men what they want. Writing and depiction that leaves the image of women being a package of sex, nurture and childbearing on a pair of legs contributes to this because men learn to believe it is what they are owed, and thus believe themselves to be justified in treating women horribly should they reject them.

This doesn't mean independent artists are personally responsible for every bad thing a woman has to withstand!!! But if someone raises the concern over a certain depiction on behalf of all the suffering that it may contribute to, then I wouldn't call that immature.

Whether an artist that cares about the issue should change their approach to female characters or not also depends on a case by case basis, someone being upset or calling things problematic doesn't automatically mean a depiction is bad or problematic. It's worth having a discussion about it if the concern is raised, and there is no one size fits all answer. For example in the cat woman/batman example you could argue that parts of the depiction were justified. Her exaggerated walk does after all resemble the sway and movements of a proud and cunning cat. But if every woman in the game walks like that... well, that's a problem.

Delaney spells it out incredibly well.

Mostly a case of blend-shapes and re-targeting animation.
With todays tools it's not quite the gargantuan task it's been made out to be.

This is a case of the Devs writing up a macho-male power fantasy type game and then trying to justify that instead of just admitting they didn't, or didn't want to write women into the game.

Personality/character specific animation is certainly a thing, Gender specific is most definitely not(or needn't be).
And in the kind of game this discussion stemmed from, it'd make no sense to differentiate.

"Incredibly well" aren't the words I'd use. :unamused:
It was an angry holier-than-thou rant that assumed everyone has access to the same resources as whoever she's been working with.

Holier-than-thou maybe, but...
The thread mentions all of the low-cost, readily available alternatives.
(or one of the lrt's does)
So no, she really doesn't. The whole point is the resources are readily available.
(The responses were over-blown, as always on twitter, but the dev statement was poorly-worded. People immediately related it to the Ubisoft crap some years back)

But I've been informed this isn't a Tarkov based topic, so I'm not here to argue the toss.


My thoughts on animating specifically(something I was trained in[3D])
Gendered animation is poopy, however, we're all so pre-disposed to seeing certain movements and mannerisms as masculine or feminine BECAUSE of animation ahah

The old Disney classics, and 2D animation in general, really did a number on us.
Every man was a puffed up dorito, and every woman was always on a cat-walk.
(An exaggeration to be sure, but something that slowly and steadily built up biases)

In recent years the trend has shifted somewhat.
Mo-cap especially, has shown us that men and women move pretty much then same way unless trained to move in a specific manner.
You could re-target simple mocap animations between men and women and not know the difference
Habits and mannerisms should build the walk, not what's between your legs.

Conscious iterations on shape-language and design feed into this as well. We're so programmed by what reads as feminine/masculine that it becomes harder and harder to break that mould

Ah yes, sure, because everything's a political statement nowadays apparently.

I also noticing, not for first or third time, how in these rants those people are always only answering to either those who agree with them or those who make simple objections, but never to people who raise valid counterarguments, like "what if I can't use zbrush and morphs and retargets because my game is hand-drawn 2d animation?".

Thankfully you can sidestep the issue entirely by just simply making your game's player character female as the only available option. For the time being, anyway... I'm sure people will eventually find some other angle of attack to harass developers.

... questioning and critiquing = harrassment now?

I have people question and react to my content on a daily basis. Some have negative feelings about my creative choices, and sometimes someone brings up things I really need to reconsider. Being questioned and learning new things is just part of being a creative producer of any form. If they want to work with it, they need to get used to it.

Now if anyone involved actually has been harrassed (death threats, lies spread, repeated verbal attacks against individuals rather than discussions of their choices....) that's not okay. Harrassing people is never okay, no matter the motive of those doing it. But I'm not sure actual harrassment is relevant here?

Gendered animation might be stupid in many cases but that doesn't negate the need for sexed animation in many (especially realistic) styles.

It's true a lot of people overestimate the sexed difference for mannerism and body language, almost all of those differences are only caused by people following gender stereotypes. But that doesn't negate a different physiology (that goes beyond just skeletal structure) and centre of gravity.

There's also many environment and story settings where adding gender non-conforming characters requires narrative adaption as well. Which means more work for writers and programmers. I personally would love more gnc characters and there's many games I never bought because the game wasn't interesting to me if I couldn't play as a lesbian. So I do get being disappointed by a lack of options, but at the end of the day just buy another game and maybe politely tell the developers why you didn't buy theirs.

(Seriously, more people who care about diversity need to put their money where their mouth is and actually buy the indie games that cater to them)

And not having the time or money to add a diversity option, even sometimes if it just a re-skin and not new models and animation from the ground up, is sometimes a valid excuse. Just because some lucky developers never had to cut features or prioritise away options they were aware some people wanted doesn't mean it never happens.

One thing questioning or critiquing (when it's justified, mind you), but a lot of people are jumping on the "you don't have X in your games\fiction, this means you hate X!" line of thought with frightening eagerness. I remember too well the shitstorm about some Czech developers apparently being racists because their mindbogglingly faithful to being historically accurate game set in a medieval eastern Europe didn't had any African-americans in it.

Regardless, saying "If they say they can't afford implementing a female character then punch them in the head" is neither a questioning nor is it a critique.

Mk so taking a step back from the pop culture wars-

The actual question that should be asked when dealing with new animations is
https://media3.giphy.com/media/RWDPIYOPlIkUg/giphy.gif

Ultimately- as a game developer you are making a game- and the first and foremost thing when making games is game play and how players are going to be interacting with the game play. Even with visual novels their is still a lot of time and energy put into what the player is doing as they are reading text- is it a murder mystery? Should they be paying attention to the background? Will their be journals for the player or are they expected to write their own notes with a piece of paper?

This is all important to get right even before you get the writing down. >how things are animated is kind of flavor< in comparison to getting game play down- having your story make sense- and making sure the game isn’t broken on release with a bunch of glitches.

Having two different animations for character models is incredibly secondary. Is it nice? Yes. Is it needed? Depends on the game.

Is the game an indie game that only exists because it got a kickstarter and has a bunch of passionate people backing it but still have their own day jobs that they have to do? Is it a role play game? Is it a game where theirs only one character to choose from so you and all NPCs have the same exact animations? Are the models made in 3D or 2D?

You can say “hey these tools are becoming more and more accessible” and you’d be right, but you know what doesn't bend to your will? Time and money management-

Maybe this is the retailer side of me but people have teams- and they have to pay their teams for the time and dedication for these projects. These projects have deadlines and if you want to meet deadlines then you have to make people work longer hours as well start paying overtime which some indie and Kickstarter companies don’t have the time and means to do.

Having multiple animations for characters is great especially in role play games cause then I can customize the shit out of a character. But ultimately I want a game that works and is well made, and sometimes that means cutting aspects of the project to fine tune other parts of it.

Most of the time the idea behind “multiple animations would have cost more” is much more complicated then that. But the company doesn’t have to explain to you -that the reasons are the power went out and they had no air conditioning for two weeks so they cut hours so their team wasn’t suffering working on heat boxes with no air and lost several hours of work because of it-

This is the simplest boil down to it.

And then understand that not EVERY demographic is going to be happy with every game. Economics is a guiding force in all of this...developers don't have an infinite well of time and resources. So if Developer X chooses to channel their efforts towards a certain slice of the market, that's their decision.

Only economics will change what's a profitable demographic to chase.

I never really understood that position as well, to be honest.
I wouldn't refrain to buy a game I'm interested in if I found out that the main character is female.
I wouldn't refrain to buy a game I'm interested in if I found out that the main character is Asian.
I wouldn't refrain to buy a game I'm interested in if I found out that the main character doesn't have ginger hair.
I wouldn't refrain to buy a game I'm interested in if I found out that the main character have moral values that don't align with mine (Although in this case - usually).
I wouldn't refrain to buy a game I'm interested in if I found out that the main character isn't a human.
Hell, I probably wouldn't even refrain from buying an interesting game if it would carry a disgusting anti-intellectual and offensive message "science is bad" or "we shouldn't go in space".

Those things are all sound so minor in comparison to stuff that usually gets me interested in the game, I can't quite wrap my head around dropping it because of that. It's like "I'll pass this because it doesn't have enough color yellow in it".

I wish I could like your post at least seven more times. :grin:

Well, it's not like I care about playing as a lesbian in every single game there is (that's a common misunderstanding when this topic is brought up), usually it's either:

a) immersive non-linear rpgs, with a player insert character, where romance is either a huge part of the game and/or there's unlockable content gated behind your character being into someone of the opposite sex.

b) most kinds of dating or romance simulators (although ofc there's exceptions, like parodies such as Hatoful boyfriend and I would consider serious games with great story as well)

c) games with a lot of sexual content, kinda, tbh I'm not sure if should count this since I do enjoy games like Catherine. I guess this one depends a lot on tone and context. And it's probably understandable that some kinds of sexual content is an absolute deal-breaker. Like I will never touch "Ladykiller in a bind" (even if looks hilariously bad to make fun of) because it was promoted as a lesbian game with only consensual sex, despite portraying a man raping a woman to "turn her straight" as "successful" and "sexy".
(Fun fact: I managed to avoid buying the game and seeing the (hidden, unskippable) rape scene, because the art's so bad I didn't realise the characters were supposed to be women)

I probably don't have to explain why some games in the last category are unappealing to me. As for the first two, they're just not fun (most of the time) to me if I have to play as a heterosexual. Maybe it's not fun because of the homophobia I have to deal with in real life (with is not insignificant thanks to queer-activists joining ranks with old-school homophobes in trying to force lesbians to like dick), maybe it's because of personal unpleasant experiences or something else.

I'm not really sure why and I don't think it really matters, because it doesn't change the fact that it's just not fun for me. So it simply doesn't make sense to spend my limited time and money on games were I'm forced to play a straight character in way that hinders my enjoyment of the game.

And in escapism, romance and/or role playing games that are specifically centered around freedom and player choice I think it's reasonable to ask for things like same-sex romance options. Doesn't mean all games need to have to them or that it's okay demand it from developers in rude or inappropriate ways. But I think it's okay to ask for (politely! please stop with twitter harassment and shit -.- ) and then buy the games that choose to cater to my demographic.

Without making a judgment of any sort, this is the same reasoning that scares off game developers in general. Just replace "straight" with whatever codifier applies to the argument.

They, by the law of economics, tend to aim/pander for the safest and most active consumer demographic first. Any arguments for a change in the industry have to start there...with economics.

Technically you can argue that making content that interests smaller target audiences makes economical sense because if one side of the market becomes too diluted, it becomes harder to convince a customer to pick your product over all the others, and the target audience can actually tire of the content being marketed to them.

It's why people who do furry commissions make so much money. It's how creators with small but intense fandoms can make a living. It's also the reason why bl is so popular on webcomic sites that let anyone publish... things that the mainstream rejects will become intensely popular wherever else it's allowed to appear, and it WILL make money.

Just like most gay people can get into and become intense fans of content that doesn't immediately pander to them, straight people can also get into content that doesn't pander to them. So that way you can also earn money from people outside of your target audience.

One way to have your cake and eat it too is to make an effort to make your content enjoyable to more groups of people, where applicable. By applicable I mean that it needs to work naturally into the product and not leave the impression of a confused style or story. It's not that difficult to write a good female character who isn't the romantic lead into most stories, but if the story takes place in the trenches of a war that took time when women just weren't out in the trenches it would be a bad move (unless it has several scenes outside of that environment).
You can also lend visibility to a group without having to make a big deal out of it. A character doesn't have to say "i am gay" or be seen with their bf to be a gay character. You don't have to pull a Rowling and post all over on your twitter about it either. Maybe the camera just casually pans over him writing a letter to his husband while something else is the focus. Not hidden, not blatantly thrown out there. It just is. Quite frankly that is sometimes the best kind of representation.

I do understand that this is a (unfortunately very valid) concern in high budget games where the player would have to play as a gay character. When I'm talking about representation there's a reason I focus smaller more niche games and player choice games where a straight player would have the option of never even flirting with someone of the same sex.

I don't fully agree with the argument you seem to be making to only look at economics and expected demographics. Too much of those analytics relies on past data and an over emphasis on only surveying the currently active (and actively pandering to) player base. This creates a feedback loop were other demographics never get considered.
And yes I have worked as game tester, been in focus groups and at industry events, (tho only smaller ones for full transparency. I do see how these loops get created).

Going for an underserved new or more niche demographic is always a risk but so is going for an already oversaturated demographic. I haven't even seen any reliable data which of these is the bigger risk, there might too many variables in each individual case tbh, but success stories do keep popping up.

For example, Undertale and Huniepop were definitely boosted by people who loved the representation (or in Huniepop's case specifically lesbian/bi-women who loved to get some fanservice aimed at us for once and a surprising amount of straight women who preferred the lesbian route). Both of these would almost surely have been successful regardless, but adding the same-sex romance was still a financial win.

I do think the latter option is probably easier and I don't hold it against any studio if that's what they chose. But I also know I lot of people who are open to the first "higher risk - higher reward" option don't go for it simply because they didn't think of it. So I think reminding people of the underserved demographics is a positive as long as it's done in an appropriate way.

This is really starting to get off subject but here

Oki so several things,

I think you're confusing "small audience" with "niche audience" the furries are much more widespread then people give them credit for- maybe cause they still kind of have to be in the closet for most "cultured" societies.

Second. I find it really strange at this idea that a target audience will get "tired" of the desire that they have- yes, it's true some things come in fads for the general public- vampires had there hay day, then zombies, now one could argue medieval times. But the actual "target" audience- that is, the people who are watching BECAUSE they like vampires or zombies- will always be looking for media with vampires and zombies. Those are your target audience and those will always be "niche" but their size will continue to vary over time.

People continue to say that everyone is having "superhero fatigue" and yet the marvel movies are doing fine making money. HELL transformer movies kept making money even tho no one apparently liked them. Its probably NOT because this fatigue is rampant and everywhere but because of two things- there is something about it you like IE you're a fan of vampires- superheroes- ext. so your gonna watch it anyway to get your fix. Then there's something called brand loyalty. You create a connection and you choose to believe that what you are consuming from this person or this company is worthwhile and worth the consistent pledge of money for the satisfaction you get from their product. These two groups of people are always going to be your backers and always going to be the people that you have to be concerned with first and foremost when making whatever product your making. They are how you have enough money to patch in a 4th romance option that is also pansexual. If your Role-playing vampire game has a really bad story and bad gameplay and really lackluster vampire lore. No one is prob gonna care that you spent more of your time and money on that pansexual character with a unique walking animation- if everything else is falling apart.