Have any of you ever experienced bullying/harassment on Tapas or the Tapas forums?

candiedcotton 2022-08-02 23:26:16 UTC #41

I've never had any issues or anything, but I rarely post in the forums. I do linger a lot and read stuff a lot, and have for about a year now.

The bigger issue for me is that there's a real lack of solid conversation, it feels. There's a crap ton of threads circling around showing off, trading views/likes/subs/etc., some critique threads... but rarely more. I also have a lot of issues with the critique threads... I've seen some stuff where someone posts asking for critique and it just gets a ton of compliments or pointers so gentle that you can't really figure out what the critique actually is. And it'll be stuff where the anatomy or whatever is just severely in need of work and education.

There is a lot of fluff here, but at the expense of genuine discourse and support, I feel.

rajillustration 2022-08-03 00:13:31 UTC #42

Tapas forums are very chill--especially when you compare it to Tumblr, or Twitter, or Discord type of fury where you basically can't ever share an opinion (for anything. hell you could just say "use reference" and start a war). In the years I've been here I've seen some very juicy threads that were entertaining to read through. Especially when the site changed it's entire layout and format without telling any of it's users beforehand that it was going to do it. It was rad. But since we no longer really have a way to talk/yell directly to the staff through forums it doesn't seem as valuable. They'll announce their activities on twitter/discord nowadays.

As for envy and follower count, I am somewhat blessed that my larger numbers are elsewhere, like my comic here with a few hundred subs does have 4K on WT but no one seems to care (also 4K on WT is like absolutely a vanity number, I can't even unlock ad revenue with it lolol). It does mean that if I share my opinion sometimes it will get completely disregarded because I'm perceived as an inexperienced artist--but I'm used to that on every social media I'm on.

There are issues that have evolved over time, which did draw artists away from Tapas in general, like with how advertising of community comics work, and the pivot towards translated imports, and with a focus on long scroll format updates with a lot of panel counts that are very dismissive of the intense physical burden that would place on disabled artists. Personally I think it's good to be able to talk about those very important business decisions that make some of us wonder if it will be worth it to continue posting here in the years to come, but those conversations can't seem to happen without people thinking it's about dogging on Premium or on whatever the trending genre of the week is. So a lot of those more serious conversations that must and need happen are more on twitter/discords.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-03 01:29:23 UTC #43

Huh, ya think? Lemme just list off a few discussion threads I've seen in recent memory:

Maybe none of the topics that have popped up interest you and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you have something you want to discuss and make a thread about it, I feel like those kinds of topics are more successful at getting engagement here than, say, discord. It's the kind of threads I most often frequent anyways. (That, and the 'showoff' threads; but at least the threads are about showing off specific things like fight scenes etc, so I find it interesting to see how different people handle something very specific and it's not just a general 'plug your work here for no reason' kind of dealio which I have less motive to engage with)

candiedcotton 2022-08-03 02:02:29 UTC #44

The thing is that nearly all of those are just sort of self-serving. And self-serving isn't inherently a bad thing, it's a necessary part of personal development and incredibly important, but notice that most of the discussion threads start with something like "I'm working on x for my story, what do you think about that subject?"

And it isn't to say those conversations aren't interesting, they're just much more lacking than the swath of people fishing for views, subs, and so forth. None of these things are necessarily bad, it just makes it more difficult for genuine discourse.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-03 02:16:44 UTC #45

Hm, I guess it just feels like the most natural thing in the world to me that people take an interest in Topic X when they're thinking of addressing Topic X in their own work. Like, your attention span is finite and if you're writing about X, then X is currently occupying a large part of your brain ... in fact it would be weird if you're like 'oh, but I'm actually super interested in this completely unrelated topic Y right now'! 'Cos as a writer, if you're interested in Topic Y, you'll kind of start thinking about incorporating it into your work in some way, right? XD

(And I think half of the threads I linked didn't actually mention 'I'm working on x for my story', which was completely by coincidence. Maybe I just got lucky XD But that's besides the point, because I will die on the hill of 'there's absolutely nothing wrong with being self-serving, and open self-interest is one of the most genuine forms of human communication there is' :P)

I guess you're right though that just looking at numbers, discussion threads are a minority - I guess I just didn't notice because I've gotten used to skimming past and tuning out stuff I'm not interested in XD

sable40k 2022-08-03 02:20:36 UTC #46

Unfortunately, I think that some people really just want compliments. Or at least, they don't quite know what kind of critique they want/need, if that makes sense...

And then there's the rare occasion where someone really takes offence over a critique and holds on to it, which is unfortunate for both sides. idk, that's why I gave up on doing them for people I don't already know well.

It's really too bad, I guess it's best to find a peer group for that sort of thing.

candiedcotton 2022-08-03 02:25:31 UTC #47

I do think we're in agreement here, and of course most people who come to these forums are artists who are focused on their work and thus make commentary and topics in regards to that work.

I'm more referring to... how it's very common for people to be sort of disingenuous. That is to say, I've often see someone make a discussion topic, where they open with how the topic relates to their own work (and will link said work in their initial post) and then half-ass respond to actual talk on the subject matter itself.

For example, a post of something like, "what do you guys think about the color green" as a topic, then posting a link to their comic and going on about how their character wears green. Someone might respond about how they find it interesting that Disney has a history of using green (this is true) for villains because the color itself used on humanoids can subconsciously make people uneasy (it triggers that "this person is diseased" sort of primitive part of our brains). The initial poster responds with "haha yeah". Or something like that. And you see it quite a lot.

None of this is to say there isn't interesting conversation, and I certainly wouldn't be here myself if I thought otherwise. Only that it tends to be a bit difficult to find and weed out the genuine discourse from the sort of underhanded fishing.

candiedcotton 2022-08-03 02:30:09 UTC #48

That's sort of what I'm getting at as well. There's a lot of fishing for attention under the pretense of conversation. That sort of disingenuous tactic just really bothers me. And again, I get the want for attention. Hell, I've posted my own show off post here a couple weeks or whatever ago that it was, but people should be honest about it.

It just makes it feel like it's difficult to find that real, earnest conversation sometimes. Same with critique, as you mentioned. I do think people often can be overly harsh in -how- they deliver critique (I'm a big fan of the sandwich method for that reason) but solid and educated critique is like taking an art class for free. Something that should really be appreciated and can be incredibly useful.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-03 02:53:26 UTC #49

I'm definitely guilty of this - just because I want to hear about people's opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'll always have a response for them, especially when we're basically in agreement. There's literally nothing for me to say except 'haha, yeah'.

I guess I understand why it might bother someone if they typed out a wall of text only to get a like in return. I tend to only respond if I have something I absolutely must say and I'll feel better off after having said it regardless of whether or not it gets a response.

I don't think it's helpful to distinguish between genuine and disingenuous people. It's just going to make people afraid to talk because they might get accused of being disingenuous. It's always difficult to have that 'real earnest conversation' you're looking for, because people suck at talking and suck at thinking of stuff to talk about:

^^^ Let me repeat that for good measure: People suck at talking and suck at thinking of stuff to talk about.

(Especially online, when it takes more effort to type out a response than it is to get drunk with your buddies IRL and run your mouth because you have no filter. Quality conversation takes more than just genuine desire for conversation - it takes effort!)

This is also why people get toxic - the only guaranteed way to get a response in return for all the effort you put in typing out discourse is to press some buttons, or just straight up be contrarian. I myself am most vocal when I disagree with someone; I try not to be toxic, but I can understand if people think I'm a negative person as a result :'D But I may well have become less negative ever since I stopped feeding the need to get a 'return on investment' on the time I put in to conversations (one way I managed this is to save my comments as potential topics to address in my future writing, so the time I spent formulating the comment may well lead to something of value even if people didn't value it at the time :P)

Enthriex 2022-08-03 03:51:42 UTC #50

Hm, I'm not waiting to get my time investment back or something like that xD I just genuinely, got like messages for example this person messaged me on facebook and said "Hi, how are you?" and I replied to them and the conversation basically died there cause they replied with one word answers. Even though the conversation never got anywhere, they repeated this over and over, so it was a bit pointless But yes, like, this person was the one initiating the conversation, I didn't expect anything XD I just find it weird and awkward.

I'm capable of following conversations but not when the other person replies with one word answers lol

But yes, since I know it's a struggle to make conversation I try to be more creative with my replies, since I know first hand how impossible it is to reply to one word replies lol

I actually don't really understand what you mean with wanting to get a return on investment with the conversations since well, uh... I adapt to the person I'm talking to (?) I have chatty friends and quieter friends, I also have friends that prefer to listen instead of talking so you just adjust (?) Kinda just accept people for how they are kind of thing.

But on the internet, when you try to engage and everyone ignores you (like on a server on discord) well, how can someone not feel awkward in that situation lol, or like this person that initiated conversations just to not reply more that one words and then not reply at all, haha.

And I dunno, you can put effort in the conversation but a conversation involves two people, so... I'd actually think your words apply to the person I'm referring to lol. I'm well aware I'm a chatty person, it just depends on whether the other party wants to make an effort themselves XD

As for people thinking you're a negative person for disagreeing, well, that's really childish I mean, people won't always agree on things and it's totally fine to disagree, it's called having an opinion and I really respect those who do so in a respectful manner while keeping a firm stance on their thoughts

Sorry if my reply is weird, I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. Was it like to me or was it like speaking of people in general?

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-03 03:58:06 UTC #51

Oh whoops, I was just quoting your experience of people saying 'hi' for no reason* and people giving short responses when you try talking to them (which ends with the conversation dying) as evidence that people suck at talking (I've experienced this often myself in deviantART and other places :'D) That comment wasn't addressed to you ^^;

well the reason was because they wanted someone to talk to ofc, but they don't have anything in particular they want to talk about so they start conversations without knowing how to continue them

Oh, and now that I've actually read your comment I feel compelled to clarify that no-one has actually accused me of being negative - just that hypothetically, if someone feels like I am (without lashing out at me), I think that's completely understandable since I do talk more about negative things than positive :]

Enthriex 2022-08-03 03:59:00 UTC #52

Ah alright, thanks for explaining cause I wasn't sure how to interpret what you were saying

sable40k 2022-08-03 06:13:08 UTC #53

Hmm... I see what you're saying; I also am at a loss for how to get around it. ¯\(ツ)/¯

I'm not particularly here to advertise, but I like a pat on the head once in a while myself. And chatting about art things without too much pressure to compare numbers. Back in the day, I feel like there were more spaces for people to do this, but the search for something similar is why I'm here.

darthmongoose 2022-08-03 08:28:21 UTC #54

I'm really not sure why there's anything bad about an artist relating a topic to their own work? That seems kind of normal. You wouldn't write an essay without citing examples, and when the topic is an artistic technique, it seems perfectly reasonable to both show how it's used in the work of a famous artist and how you use it in your own work. Like... I can't imagine if I went to a talk by Steven King or read or listened to an interview by Brian Lee O'Malley them talking about writing or comics in a totally abstract way without giving examples from their own work.

It's definitely a little gauche to stick your link at the bottom of a post in a non-promo thread, and yeah, I do get bugged by seeing a thread that's like "Promote yourself by [discussing how you handled a really interesting topic your work!]" because I'm there like "I don't really need to be in promo threads... and being in promo threads when you're in 4 digit subs feels a bit uncomfortable... but also this is a really interesting topic I'd like to talk about!"

The problem with the whole promo situation though, much like the subscriber envy, is hardly something the forums themselves can fix. It's partially a problem with how Tapas' UX/UI design includes a progress bar that sets everyone's "acceptable baseline performance" at 250 subs and reminds them every time they go to their dashboard that they haven't hit it, creating an urgent drive to complete the progress bar even if it's with cheesy and unhelpful methods like sub-for-sub.

...And then it's also partially an issue of people not thinking of popular comics as aspirational. Something I see a lot of on the forums and discord is users proudly proclaiming that they don't read any premium or popular series on Tapas... and then saying people ought to read their comic or novel. It screams "I'm an amateur". No professional would expect much if they pitch their work to a publisher who doesn't publish titles similar to what they want to make, and any professional with sense would look primarily for publishers who have had success publishing works similar to what they want to make. People seem to forget that Tapas IS a publisher, it's just that unlike traditional publishers who will be very picky about who or what they'll take up front based on quality and fitting their niche, Tapas will let anyone at all in, but then only promote works that fit the vibe and are up to their quality standards. So basically promotion is the means of selection rather than entry; community comics are effectively a slush pile, and Tapas will promote ones they feel fit their platform as the equivalent of a publisher putting something in print. But people miss that hidden mechanic. They think that since everyone can post, that therefore everyone has an equal chance of success on the platform, or some people even think everyone deserves an equal chance of success, like as though Tapas is a government distributing grants or something, not a publishing business that curates content for an audience.

...And so you get this weird scenario that's totally unlike comics communities I grew up on. On the Sweatdrop forums, I was keen to learn from people like Emma Viecelli and Sonia Leong, because I wanted to be like them. I wanted to make a really polished small press manga with a nice cover and then print it and put it on a table at MCM Expo like them! I wanted to use proper screentones like them and learn to do fancy text effects like them! I wanted to win national manga competitions and get published by real publishers or do freelance jobs and workshops like them too, but I understood that I had to become as good as they were at making polished looking manga to do it; the competitions and publishing and jobs were like exams to gauge my progress. On Tapas, people want to hit the numbers, but they often don't seem to want to be like the people who have hit the numbers; in fact they're often outright derisive of them.

The upshot is this community where some people feel they're owed the attention of an audience and publisher that likes content they have no interest in providing for, and that craves the success of creators it's wilfully ignorant to the value of, so they just sit there talking about themselves, bemoaning the poor taste of the userbase compared to their own, looking for other people like them for mutual support "against the system" to make their number go up, feeling bitter that the platform and its audience aren't interested in what they're selling, but with no desire to sell something they would want because they don't actually like or even appreciate or respect any of the existing popular content.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-03 10:00:31 UTC #55

Oh yeah, I totally get wanting to be popular, but not wanting to be like the popular comics on the platform you're publishing on. Thing is, if you go down that route, you're better off treating Tapas as just a hosting site; nothing more, nothing less. Reach out to people offsite; think of yourself as an old school webcomic creator with your own website, or an indie game developer. Don't look to Tapas to give you that push, and don't measure your success by Tapas metrics like subs, comments and likes. Get people to discuss your work on Reddit, on Youtube, hell, on 4chan if you're willing to go there. Become a cultural phenomenon.

... now that I think about it, I think I've been trying to emulate indie visual novels like Katawa Shoujo and Doki Doki Literature Club. I guess it is good to look up to something; not just to their success but what they are :o

darthmongoose 2022-08-03 10:17:19 UTC #56

YES. This is the thing. If you have no comp titles on Tapas and don't match the vibe, it's a solid option as either free hosting while you take the weight of promotion on your own shoulders, OR as a mirror site to find those people who do end up browsing Tapas who fall outside the main audience and making them aware of your stuff and perhaps funnelling them into whatever your larger platform is, like say, your print books or a main site or similar (also the case with a lot of NSFW comics, where the heavily censored Tapas version is partially there as an advert for Patreon access to the uncensored one).
But anyone who can't name three premium Tapas comics they like, or even three comics over 10,000 subs they like probably shouldn't be looking at Tapas at their primary platform; it's probably not going to work out.

NellieVP318 2022-08-03 11:52:53 UTC #57

I mostly use Tapas as place to dump some of my writing. I usually never thought of any of my work as marketable friendly. So I guess a good advice for people is to find a market who would like your work rather than trying to get broad audience.

On topic, I never experienced any bullying or harassment here since my time being here. But I have seen how some conversations on the forums in the past have been a little on the wild side.

UrMom 2022-08-03 14:57:33 UTC #58

This is something I don't understand. Yeah, a lot of them pretty much look the same style wise, and their backgrounds can be ass-ugly since the creators don't have the time to naturally incorporate the 3D modelling with the drawings (Those generic 3D horse with carriage models are a gem!), even the art could use a lot of work sometimes, but there are some genuinely interesting comics in the premium section. I've read probably 20 or so and can pick out some that are super unique, or have really weird quirks in spite of them being standard romance. Like, to name one premium that I think is a great read that's also really different (Even from free-to-read comics.) is Navillera: Like a Butterfly, and it's sad that it's being dissed purely for being a premium comic. What's also sad is many of those premium comics probably barely make enough to cover labor and use of resources since the most I've seen episodes go for is a little over 300 ink, which is about .03 cents USD after Tapas' fee and such. Sure, sometimes they'll get a big bulk of money if someone binges their comic, but that's not a regular occurrence.

Sorry to rant, I'll totally make fun of those bundle bought Korean comics, but to hate them for just existing is nasty. How do you expect your stories to be read if you can't even have the most basic respect for people trying to make an honest living off something they're passionate about?

Honestly, unless you really want to get in the Tapas game, I think that's how free-to-read creators should treat it. There's so much work you have to do with so little meaningful payoff, you may as well have your own site (Or post on Comicfury.) while using Tapas as a mirror, and pay a little extra for ad space.

DiegoPalacios 2022-08-03 17:39:55 UTC #59

To be fair, some of the names are way too long to remember

Jokes aside, you got a solid point on the fact that some hosting sites have a different main audience as their focus.

Personally, i started here as a training field of sorts because i got to meet other creators and the tendency towards more constructive feedback.

bulgariansumo 2022-08-03 19:25:10 UTC #60

Something else I'd point out about Tapas's UI that probably makes smaller creators more number hungry is the section with views, likes, and subscriber growth.

This probably isn't too bad to have if you need to keep track of that number growth for profit, but I could see how having it in your face permanently can really influence a creator's mood depending on how the numbers are trending. Even if the numbers are still going up, this section can undermine it with "They're not going up as much as they were yesterday : / " I wish this feature were on a toggle or something.