Honest discussion about “UNPAID collabs”

I came to this from the standpoint of someone who's an artist and not a writer and I stand behind my argument.
I never said the artist doesn't do revisions either, I just count that as something that's inside the 1-3 hour worktime per page. Which is a number I'm bringing from myself, and other artists I know in the communtiy who all have similar time stamps on their work. My whole point in that "rebutltal" (not really my word of choice, but, well-) is that just like artists take a long amount of time drawing a single scene because revisions go into that, writers take a long amount of time to write a scene because they also do revisions.
Does it guarantee to bring a better product? Theoretically, no. Realistically, yes. Practice and research almost always yield better products, because the more thought you put into something, the stronger it's going to get as a concept. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I'm going to wager you're more or less a lone wolf on the stand that thinking through a project wouldn't do it any help.

If you need to redraw your hand once that's a revision. If you need to draw it over and over almost every scene, that's a matter of skill and practice.
Writers will most likely need to do revisions almost every scene regardless of skill, because they need to match themselves to the artist, and need to keep the full picture in mind. Artists can still come, draw the page, and it's a finished product.

If you're only looking at product brought to the table, and not at the quality of the product (the "ideas") you're just not fit to work on collaborations, pal.

hi.
I'm an artist, musician, composer, writer/author, and much more. For all my skills, there is always someone demanding attention for how to do their own, or even for me to make them something.
I have worked with my brother before on collabs, and to say collabs no matter economics is fun, is an understatement. But I trust my brother, I know him enough to know he's not going to jip me on a publication or future payment promises.
I have also sought artists of higher calibers for my writings, and well, even with payments, and money involved, working with strangers is highly indeterministic. A complete stranger is more likely to take your money and walk away then someone you know in person.
Ya writing is a skill, so is art, and I have worked on both since a young age. I put in the time for both to get to the point I'm at now. I feel that others take these skills for granted, never fully appreciating the hours of content created that isn't pleasing to the artist/writer.
I do want to collaborate in the future with an author, but I would much rather prefer I meet them in person, and work closely with them in my home town where I know I can find them and not be afraid they are just some liar pretending something on the internet.
There is always some young person with dreams of making a comic or graphic novel or story book or a novel. Great, we should encourage them to fulfill that dream. I don't think we should be upset they are trying to find a partnership that works for them. But we also need to make things painfully clear, on subjects of time as you have mentioned, and economics involved.
My current wip is an 11 year old manuscript I have only recently began to make the art for. I spent those 11 years creating pieces of art, most of which I do not own anymore, lost to trash and so on.

I think the biggest problem facing anyone, is the fear of failure, the fear of never reaching a goal. Those fears can cause us to panic and rush things, and make work of low quality. Some of my best works, took weeks, months or years to complete. Often times I would just spend forever trying to invision a story or subject or background, and finally find a working reference or have some inspirational dream or experience to base a work on.

So I dont think we should chastise these authors, but be honest about how demanding their work(s) will be.

And I totally agree that these authors should begin practicing art for their works.

I often get at a point where I believe my decisions in creative venues are final, that it will be that way for all my life. but as my mother pointed out, I have my entire life to perfect my works and make them as I want the world to be able to enjoy.

As a writer, I totally agree. I'm working on an unpaid collab and I think about it all the time, every day. I'm always planning ahead to what will happen, what would be in character, what I'll have to Google. You can't qualify that in hours because I'm doing it in the car and at my desk and almost any time my brain is free.

And while I'm doing that, my artist is thinking about future panels, what the composition is going to look like, who is standing on the right or the left, how to make things flow down the page, how they're going to shade the flashbacks differently from the present, how to pinpoint the exact facial expression I've described. They're DEFINITELY thinking that every time I write the character is smoking, they'll have to figure out which hand the cig is in, will it cover the face when they take a drag, what happens to it when the action starts. They're looking up references to trains and jail cells and furniture. On top of also wondering what I'm going to do with the story next and what they'll have to adapt to. AND THEN they have to sit down and spend more hours actually drawing it compared to the hours I'll spend at my keyboard.

If "thinking about it a lot" counts as part of the workload for writers, the same is true of artists.

Yeah I draw pretty fast usually and 1-3 hours for a page of finished artwork is absurdly fast. I usually spend that long on just the coloring.

@sleepingpoppy , @kytri
sorry if i misrepresented artists somehow, like i said before this is based on me and my friends, obviously worktimes vary, and I can’t account for those i don’t know :0c

also

i am so salty rn

Like I said, I realize you were basing it off what you know, but since the actual average times would be relevant to the conversation, it's important for other to realize that the numbers you gave likely way under the norm. I make a full color comic, and I guarantee you 1-3 hours are not my numbers. XD

Was directed at your conversation, not you specifically, as a reminder that the board will get shut down if we don't behave. Also, the fact that we can't seem to have this conversation without writers and artists insulting/feeling insulted is dumb and bums me out.

^just so you know I wasn't, like, singling you out specifically. It's not an artists vs writer thing. Everyone needs to keep a cool head.

Taking a step back from the points that everyone is making here (some I agree with, others not as much) I just wanted to add some of my experiences as an example.

I'd like to believe that I'm somewhat of an established author but when going into a collaboration, what's taken at face value is honestly what you bring to the table.

Just like how artists have portfolios for professionals to look at, I clearly state my "portfolio". An example of a writer's "portfolio" won't usually be just a list of manuscripts/novels/poems/etc that they've finished but also a comprehensive statistic of how many readers or followers that they have. This way, just like how artists are trying to entice their viewers with their artistic skills, writers can entice by guaranteeing at least "x" amount of initial viewers that will be interested.

I did a short slice-of-life comic called TurtleDays3 and since I can't draw for the life of me, I garnered the attention of various artists to draw the scripts that I wrote for me.

This worked for several reasons:
1. The commitment was just one short strip most of the time, with the option of coming back if satisfied.
2. I still paid them (albeit usually a discounted amount).
3. I promised a shout out to the artists' original works so that viewers from the comic strip of my title were easily able to go to the artist profile of the one who actually drew it.

Result:
I was able to get a large number of interested artists, many of whom were willing to do it for free. Why? Because it was low-commitment and a way for them to garner new readers for their original works.

When I posted on this forum about wanting to hire artists for this, I stated how many people are subscribed to my works and how many views my novel/comic has, not because I'm bragging, but because it's what I bring to the table in order to attract artists of a certain level.

TL;DR
As an artist, your work speaks for itself. No matter how "unfair" it may seem to writers, it's a lot easier to gauge the skill level of an artist by what they've drawn.

For a writer, I don't think that just a script and the firm "we can do it" belief is enough to attract an artist. If you really want to attract a dedicated/motivated/talented artist to work with you long-term, the promise of future profit means absolutely nothing unless you can back up that base with proper statistics to prove what you're saying.

I kind of barfed this all out so my apologies for mistakes and the like.

It's not about shitting on anyone. It's about the reality that if 1 artist and 1 writer pair up to do an unpaid collab, the artist is (most of the time) going to be spending more billable hours on the final comic than the writer will. Drawing takes longer than writing (most of the time). And because of that, promising an artist 50% of "potential" profits isn't a fair assumption given the division of labor.

And when writers hear this, they sometimes feel defensive and will say, "But I also have to edit and revise." So does the artist. "But I also have to research." So does the artist. No one is saying the writer's work is less valuable, there's just a fundamental difference in hours spent glued to a screen, and that should play a part when any potential collab discusses how profits are going to be split.

Okay but that's literally what I said from the first second.

and in my comment even before that i explictly mentioned 50/50 splits being unfair towards the artist

I never said the same amount of time goes into to work, I just said (and you're more than welcome to look over my comments for this because it repeats each time)
comparing 6 minutes of work from the writer to 6 hours of work from the artist is not a fair comparison
that isn't to say it's flipped, or equal, just that the differences aren't as large as that.

You sure got a funny way of "defending" people in the community. Are artist that do extensive research research just wasting time then... or does it count like if they were writers? Colorists... letterers ...no need to research and hone your craft either, I guess it doesn't count unless you're a writer.

Really? Let's look at your previous post...

For future reference, THAT's where this conversation went off the rails. Don't assume you can just post snide stuff about people who disagree with you and it won't garner a more spirited retort. You can try and point fingers and claim I'm being "hostile" and "offputting" and you can "feel a bit bad for the writers in 'collective' " but YOU were the one who posted a passive aggressive response to this post...

Does that seem like the sort of post that requires a normal person to judge some one as UNFIT ?

Child please.

Me personally, unless you're really passionate and the partner(s) you're working with are equally as passionate about the project, then it can be an enjoyable experience, but I've only really had one of those. If I'm not going to be paid for it, I'm not going to dedicate my all into it, or if I absolutely hate it I'll just rush things out, I'm not being paid for it, so what do I care anymore, yeah exposure is important, but so is the sense of passion for the work, and money is a great motivator.