Mar 15
30 / 31
Mar 15
7d ago
mohdadeebace
8d
JoshRaed

what i want to say is that, too much of a detail in a story restricts you to expand the story the why you think is good for it... suppose 2 situation -
A) you've planned your story from A to Z with every details and all... you write it with all the details you think is and will be necessary at the beginning and start uploading it.... now suppose, whatever you planned, at some point you realize that it doesn't help you and you know you can make it work out but tweaking or changing it... but you can't do it because of those details you've already mentioned. (now you've to maintain it's continuity)
B) You've planned you're story from A to Z with every detail... you write it with what detail is needed only and at some point you realize some detail that you though of is not working... you can simply tweak and change it because you havn't put it out yet...

in your situation, you need the readers to know all these details before entering the second act of the story, but why can't you give all these details when you really need them to happen in the story, like in the second act of the story.

OR (This can be a simple solution)

One way to get through with this is you become an unreliable narrator of you story.... just say that some details is a lie or something that the narrator doesn't understand but then when it reveals, narrator is as shocked as the audience. (That way you don't need to change the excessive details of the story, and it would make the audience to make assumption that anything can happen in the story because the rules are not clear)

It's just some advice and I am really bad when conveying my thoughts, so please don't get angry

jwabeasley
7d

Alright. You have a lot going on in your story - maybe too much. However, based on your descriptions, I don't think everything really NEEDS to be told at first. Further, while you gave a lot of worldbuilding information, you didn't tell me much about thse lead/chosen one people. What are their personalities? How are they interesting for a reader to engage with?

My advice is to focus on this second real but unknown chosen one (if you must have chosen ones at all) as your protagonist, someone who doesn't know he's the chosen one but does want desperately to help the displaced people in his land. Maybe he lives alone because his family was killed by the dark magic. Maybe he has a secret hideout where he experiments on some dark magic-infused objects, trying to purify them. Maybe he spends his days working in a menial job which imparts skills that will be relevant to purification later (salt maker? thief? candle maker? gardener?). His most important character attributes could be his compassion for others and his persistence to help people, and his personality could be relentlessly cheerful and optimistic to inform the dichotomy of lively light vs cold death.

Then the ruined former chosen one with magic poisoning can be this somewhat older, famous "chosen one" that the population trusts and whose magic poisoning is a state secret. You can now work all of this into later chapters as our hero navigates the world.

Just show that the world is this way, and don't explain it! It'll look cool and be fun. You can explain it later.

The other elements - how prophecy works, what the Arcanum is, how dark corruption works, that there even is a demon king, and so forth - can also all be introduced later, one at a time, as our protagonist learns about the world outside of his humble refugee camp.

With the first chapter, you need to establish ONLY these things:
1. Who is the lead character, and what are they like?
2. Why do we care?
3. What is the main draw of the story?

The setup for anything else shouldn't be more than a throwaway line or an image here and there at this point. I bet you can build a good opening chapter with no prologue for this story, if the lead is solid enough.

NickRowler
7d

If you are worried there is too much necessary details, maybe cut back on what is needed for the story.

I would also recommend reading books in the same genre and see how other writers handle it. I feel a lot of them start with a naive hero who befriends someone who helps explain things to them through out the story.

moontokkym
7d

As others have said, you don't need to reduce the detail of your story just rework it. Take a look at what your story needs to know right now in act 1 and explain the bare minimum details of what needs to be known for the upcoming chapter.Through character dialogue, character non-verbal interaction and attitudes you can get a lot of info.

Sometimes an ATLA-style info dump at the start can work out, but it needs to be well written, easy to follow and most importantly: hella short. A short paragraph max with at most 1 jargon word (and that word has to be EASILY DEFINABLE within the paragraph), and the visuals if in comic form have to also reflect what is being said in the paragraph. Though it can seem simpler, it's actually a lot harder to make intriguing.

Ok so I'm going to give an example from my work because it's what I know and it's one of the things readers have praised so far.
My story starts with a short 4 page intro to the world (page 1 pictured here), it sets the scene for chapter 1 and gives people the absolute barebones info on what's going on so that the reader can understand the immediate stakes of what happens directly afterwards, i.e. there's a truck giving out water that the MC is going to miss if they don't run now to catch it. It's immediately relevant information so i made the compromise of shortening the intro to get to the action and work out a narration-style intro that shows off the world while the MC finishes work and goes home.

However, cloning is a really important part of my comic. The main character is a genetecist who specialises in cloning, many characters are clones themselves, a huge point of tension in the plot is how the clones are percieved and how they fit into the world. I have an 11 page document on different cloning methods that the MC is intimately familiar with, the history of cloning, the big innovators of the field, the fight for justice in history, the works. They are arguably more important than the setting itself.
The clones are not mentionned explicitly until near the end of chapter 1, 30 pages in. And even then, only a single line of my notes made it in: that the mc has trauma that is used as an excuse for their prejudice that is common enough to be somewhat brushed off, though not entirely socially acceptable.

None of this is stated directly, it's all in subtext. Not always subtle subtext but subtext nonetheless. Other details like how clones are made exactly, life expectancy, human genetic modification laws, clone usage in labor forces, etc... All are important aspects to understand the stakes of where I'm going with this story as well as multiple character arcs, but they will be introduced when they need to be, because dumping what is essentially a lecture on the subject at the start is going to push readers away. I didn't make the story less complicated, I made it more digestible. You can too.

Also important to know: I am not at the second act yet, and I'm 80 pages in. I've got another 5 chapters before i'm there, and I've already been able to build on the barebones explanations I gave in the intro. Just because the second act is coming and you need readers to know these things first, doesn't mean you have to stick it all in the first 10 pages and then once we've done our homework the action can start.

JoshRaed
7d
jwabeasley

The character of fake chosen one literally only goes on his quest because he is magically compelled to and wants to get this over with, so i’m not sure what kind of protagonist he’ll make. Also we still need to understand dark and light magic to understand the chosen one.

Orion being chosen one but not knowing about the dark lord is harry going to wizard school and THEN learning that magic exists. It’s fundamentally wrong continuity. There is no chosen one without the dark lord.

I feel like you only skimmed what I wrote. No one is a former chosen one, there’s no demon king, and all of this information is fundamental to knowing what the stakes and conflict are. Why things need to happen the way they do, why our protagonist makes the choices he makes.

JoshRaed
7d
1
NickRowler

I did cut a lot of stuff. The main character doesn’t even know what an Arcanum is and doesn’t care to know, because said information can be pushed aside to later as long as we understand that the true chosen one being an Arcanum soldier is very bad news and no one can know, so that at the very start of the quest the main character can keep that a secret. As for dark magic I’ve turned the rules over in my head a dozen times.

If dark magic cannot claim light territory the conflict is meaningless. If light magic can claim said territory back the conflict is also meaningless. If the two function fundamentally differently than the entire big reveal this story is leading up to later will not make sense.

JoshRaed
7d
EncryptedWriting

The secondary main character is an arcanum so he can’t be introduced if we don’t know what that is otherwise it’s meaningless. I did leave a hole of not explaining what an Arcanum is, just that no one likes them for some reason we’ll know later.

The idea of concentrated dark magic being able to overtake light magic and this claiming territory for other side is necessary to giving the narrative stakes and a sense that something bad is happening here that needs to be stopped, otherwise the world could just continue forever like this.

But also the light zone can’t have an effective way of taking it back otherwise the conflict is gone as well. It has to be only the chosen one that can do this, even though light and dark magic can both overpower each other.

There are two major plot points that rely on light magic being able to overtake dark magic, so I can’t cut that detail, so in the end there has to be some cost to it, and that’s concentrated/mixed magic.

KevinReijnders
7d

I know better than to actively engage with your questions, lest I tumble down a frustrating rabbit hole.

Instead, I'm linking a writing lecture series by Brandon Sanderson and you do the work yourself :smile_01:

JoshRaed
7d
jwabeasley

I actually wrote this entire post working backwards from your questions.

We need to know who the lead character is, and how he’s been told he’s the chosen one his whole life but his powers have still not manifested.

We care because without his powers, the dark zone is claiming more and more territory and if the light zone tries to take it back without him the result will render people homeless, so he has to be the one to do it.

The main draw of the story is his relationship with the real chosen one, having to fake being the chosen one and hide his existence as Arcanum so he doesn’t get killed.

So that’s basically every story detail I listed.

JoshRaed
7d
moontokkym

So by the end of chapter one, we find out who the real chosen one is.

To care about this plot point we need to know what a chosen one is, what they do, why they matter, and why this particular character being a chosen one is bad.

And this list of details are all necessary to understand this.

In chapter two they go on their quest. But by this point the characters need a way to get there, and to know how they’re getting there we have to know why they haven’t already, which is why we have to know what the dome is, and how it’s going to be crossed, because the main characters aren’t going anywhere if that’s not sorted out.

kyupol
7d

I say start it simple and straightforward at a time. No need to data dump in the beginning.

A common criticism I have with many comics and novels is a lot of dialog could have been reduced or eliminated (yes. Some of my readers have also pointed that out in my own stuff so I'm equally guilty of it lol ).

To do my best to eliminate unnecessary details, is to write it point by point as a summary. That would help eliminate unnecessary details.

jwabeasley
7d

It's a start! Not quite what I meant. Here's mine for Etherwood chapter 1:

  1. Veronica is a kind and helpful girl, although a bit weird and bookish. She can see spirits and do a little magic. She lives in the middle of a fairytale forest!
  2. She's feeling lonely, but who/what is this mysterious space object?
  3. I offer warm character humor, creative interpretations of uncommon folklore, and pretty pictures!

For yours, try this:
1. [Hero] is [peronality trait] and [personality trait]. He is also the chosen one, the only person who can reverse the world's corruption! He lives in [a refugee camp?]
2. His powers haven't manifested yet and he feels [like a failure or a fraud]. This is a problem because [personal stakes]!
3. Readers will love your [creative worldbuilding? Awesome action scenes? Wish fulfillment narrative?]

JoshRaed
7d
  1. Orion is the hero of valiant city and the prince of the light zone. He is also the chosen one, the only person who can reverse the world's corruption! He lives in Valiant city.
  2. His powers haven't manifested yet and he feels like a failure or a fraud. This is a problem because the dark zones corruption will make part of the world part of the dark zone and under the dark lords rule, and if the light king uses his light magic to counter it that will render the land toxic with magic.
  3. Readers will love your characters and story and action.

Yeah this is all still very complicated in the middle part. And even if it doesn’t make us care more about Orion, the dome is still extremely important. Without a way past the dome, Orion isn’t going to try and leave. The story needs to address this dome problem before the second act can happen.

And Nobody is also an important character, his prescience does not make sense if we do not know about the Arcanum and their place in this society before his arrival in the narrative.

jwabeasley
7d
JoshRaed

Great, we're getting somewhere. What is Orion's personality, outside of the hero stuff?

With number 2, It seems like you're trying to tell multiple stories at once. Try and find a way to make them sequential, instead, and that will give you an easier time deciding what elements to save for later. First big step seems to be getting Orion through the dome.

Number 3 - alright, so action is the main draw. The other two parts are common to every work of fiction (I, too, enjoy novels that are book shaped and have pages). We can work with that - what kind of action do you do well? High octane nonstop battles with big powerups and lots of yelling, gritty messy affairs where the hero is on the ropes and about to bleed out, strategic chess matches with clever opponents, wild nonsense with fun gimmicks?

JoshRaed
7d
EncryptedWriting

I know you tried to help but honestly your advice felt like you didn’t get what I was describing at all. Like I never said I was going to make the audience do their exposition homework before any story moments can happen, I just said my story had too many details to dole out in just one chapter. They were spread naturally across the chapter but were still too much. I don’t know why you’re telling me to do this his very basic writing thing i’ve been doing the whole time.

JoshRaed
7d
jwabeasley

I have a whole character sheet for Orion but I don’t know what it will add here. Do you want to see it?

The fact that light magic can overpower dark magic but at a bad cost could be established later, but having it NOT be established now would honestly just be contrived. It would either require a character to not do something he’d definitely do, or for the story to cut away from this very important thing that happened, or to contrive a scene where the hero doesn’t see it so we can learn what happened later, meanwhile it’s common knowledge to the whole world if the setting.

I don’t really know my strengths action-wise, but I think my best work was actually a crossover fanfic I wrote where I did interesting creative stuff with the various powers in question.

jwabeasley
7d

No, I don't need to see a stat block for Orion. What I'm getting at is a common mistake I see in new fantasy writers that you may be making as well, which is spending a lot of time on worldbuilding and creating cool abilities or magic systems, but very little on the personality of your protagonist and how it supports the story you want to tell. You should be able to tell me easily and quickly what kind of person Orion is without reference to powers or destinies or plot even.
Like the following: Harry Potter is a determined and persistent character. He basically has the personality of a noir detective, but his lack of trust in authority and his refusal to let a good deed go undone lead him naturally into many entertaining scenarios that would definitely not happen if Hermione was the chosen one protagonist.
Frodo Baggins is a wise and introspective hobbit, whose good heart and long endurance allows him to withstand corrupting influence for a long time, even if he often lacks practical skills and relies on others to get him where he needs to go. LOTR would be very different with Sam or even Bilbo as protagonist!
Laios is a curious but socially awkward person thanks to his autism. Both those traits make him an excellent adventurer but lead him into dangerous scenarios and causes interpersonal problems with his companions.

You can repeat this for any quality work of fiction - the protagonist's personality drives everything.

As for the rest, you've received advice from several talented creators, and you can take it or not. https://www.weeklywisdomblog.com/post/zen-story-a-cup-of-tea

JoshRaed
7d

Sorry, I didn’t mean like a D & D sheet I was just told to write a character sheet to keep track of my characters traits. I didn’t write down a single stat.

I actually put a lot more work into my characters than my world building, which for the longest time was just a hodgepodge, lazily constructed from whatever I wanted the plot to be and what the characters are doing but otherwise it was just skyscrapers. Like I literally had a crown prince wearing jeans and a T-shirt and fighting like the hulk and driving a normal real world convertible with the top down and I put no thought into how or why, and his name was Heiroe because I was stupid then. The characters were always my priority over the world. But the characters live in the world. And these details cannot be cut no matter how I try to re-imagine the plot into not containing these details.

Orion is a great hero and obedient prince. He is dedicated to his role as chosen one and has been since a young age, and puts all his energy into helping other people. He views his father as someone to obey fully but will do what’s right anyway. He is very socially awkward and quiet, viewing his own feelings and needs as less important than that of other people. He has a lot of anger at himself about his own perceived failures.

His personality drives the plot. A character with a different personality in his shoes would have done something else that causes some other story to happen. And the reason why he does what he does inherently requires knowing what the rules are, what his actions mean. Like if no one explained what Slytherin house is, Harry Rejecting Slytherin house would not add to his character and would not mean anything. Similarly, if we don’t know about the Arcanum, Orion choosing to save an Arcanum and keep his existence a secret would also not mean anything. That’s why there are the details.

If we did not see the light king render an entire apartment complex unlivable to stop the spread of dark magic he could not erase, his guilt and self-hatred wouldn’t mean as much. If we did not have the dome we could not have the entirety of season two, or the way Orion is forced to work together with a stranger who can help him pass the dome. And without the rules of dark and light magic the plot is just not happening and he can’t be in the plot.