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carloswebcomic
Dec '19

I work really hard trying to make the best comic I can, even to the point of self harm.
I've even managed to give myself a heart condition by overworking myself.
However, my best is not good enough to compete with the extremely talented and skilled creators that are at the top of the food chain. Not even close.
Right now I have about 15 hours a week to pull a full colour page and the remainder of the week is spent doing 2 exclusive drawings for my Patreon, and I barely make it. I literally have no spare time to put any more work into this.
I need to get better at this. I need to get better at the artwork, the writing and the jokes, but I just don't have the time.
I can't go on regular hiatus as I'm already finding it hard to keep my current readers as it is. I also really need my Patreon money.

And no, I don't need exposure. Exposure only works when you have something good that people will like and stay for it.

I'm clutching at straws here, but does anyone have some sort of magic system to get better at writing and art that doesn't take much extra time?
Probably, my only "spare" time is during my train trip to work which is 1 hour each way, but is so cramped that I don't feel comfortable breaking out a sketchpad and pencils.
Any ideas?

  • created

    Dec '19

  • last reply

    Jan '20
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darthmongoose
Dec '19

You know, friend, I've seen you beating yourself up about your work's performance on a lot of threads now and I'm kind of concerned about you. I think that perhaps you've made an incorrect evaluation of why your work isn't doing so well as you want it to and I want to try to help you understand the underlying issue as best I can.

I don't think your art or your writing are the reason your work lacks traction. I think it's that the premise of your work has naturally limited appeal; it's a niche comic based around stuff you find sexy and fun but won't necessarily interest a lot of people who don't share your particular tastes.

It's a comic about lesbians, but as a lesbian when I tried to read it, I hated it; I don't want to read a comic about these cutesy, underage looking characters who behave like children and are constantly objectified with their jeans riding up like they're vacuum-packed around their crotches, it's just not my thing. If I'm gonna read something with sexy content (pretty rare for me), then I like f/f stories about adult women who behave like adult women (Roomie! is a sexy comedy with f/f content that I actually enjoy). There are some people who like that sort of "moe ecchi" stuff, but it's never going to be mainstream. Even in Japan it's not mainstream, but relies on a small but very intensely interested audience who will sink a lot of money into it and privately share it around with other people who are really into it.

It doesn't matter how great the art is or how well written the jokes are, and let me be clear here, I think the art is absolutely pro quality and very polished and the visual storytelling and the writing are perfectly fine; I do not want to read this comic, and no matter how much the art improves, I will never want to read this comic because I don't enjoy what the comic is about. Comics with sexy content rely on hitting certain fetish/fantasy groups, and tend to have very dedicated followings, but they're limited by the size of the fetish/fantasy group, which will create a sort of ultimate cap on the audience size.

I think rather than getting obsessed with making the art even more polished, what you should focus on is how and where you're marketing. You need to either make a comic with more widespread appeal to the kind of people already on Tapas (like a more work safe comedy comic, a more serious romance story, some sort of cute slice of life etc), find ways to get the most out of the audience you have (merch, spinoffs etc.) or you need to find the kind of places where guys who are into this kind of comic hang out (my bets would be 4Chan, Reddit and Tumblr). No matter how much you improve the art or the jokes, it's not going to suddenly convert all the girls who are on Tapas to read serious drama about beautiful brooding men into fans of a bawdy comedy about cutesy girls.

carloswebcomic
Dec '19

Oh Jesus, 4Chan hates me for not being a hate mongering racist, so that's out of the question. Reddit terrifies me and Tumblr doesn't care either.

I do understand what you're saying though. Problem is I have no idea what my market is or where they are.
I guess is my fault for not keeping up with trends. I mean, I don't even read comics, except for Apricot Cookie(s).

But thank you for telling me this, because I just don't know.
I've been beating myself up and working myself silly when the answer was simple. I just don't have something that people want, regardless of how well it's put together.
I guess this answers a lot of questions. It's like the old polishing a turd thing.

darthmongoose
Dec '19

Don't be too hard on yourself about it. I think you're an excellent artist with strong visual storytelling and comic timing and you've made a really polished product, but yeah, polishing it to the point you get sick isn't the way here. The quality of your work is more than good enough, in the same way that Firefly was one of the best TV series ever made but got cancelled after one season not because it was bad, but because it was really hard to sell "dysfunctional cowboys in space" to a broad audience. There are some comics we make for ourselves, knowing they have limited appeal, because it makes us happy, and there are some comics we try to sell, and for those, it's always a frustrating mixture of trying to work out what people want and a dose of luck in terms of hitting some kind of zeitgeist and getting seen.
I know that's really frustrating and that the dream is to draw the comic that is your personal dream comic that you want to read AND make a living off it (oh boy do I know how that feels, hahaha!).

KelheorRegular
Dec '19

Maybe what you need is another idea.
To tell the truth, I have no idea why would someone follow the comic without an actual plot for 5 years. To see the pantsushot of the same loli girl for 1000th time? Even if people love the characters, it's probably not something they will go and read immediately as it's published, because there is no real reason, not like they will find out something new happening, they won't see the development of action and characters growing.
Your pages just feel like a filling episode of the anime - "cute, funny, but please let's return to the plot". And since they are not even in the "relatable comics" category, you won't remember and laugh at them next week when something like this happens to you.
But then I feel this way about most comics like this, they are just something you see on 9gag and pretty much forget after half an hour of scrolling, so this is just one person's opinion.

carloswebcomic
Dec '19

Ouch.
I put so much work on developing the characters and changing their relationships over time that this really tells me how badly I've failed.
I don't think I need a new idea, I think this pretty much tells me that I don't know what I'm doing.

KelheorRegular
Dec '19

I really just scrolled through your comic, and read a few pages from here and there. I don't say you haven't developed the characters and their relationships (hard to notice when you don't read the whole thing), but overall it's a funny ecchi, which is not overly interesting to read for a long time.

elyss
Dec '19

I just wanted to say that I checked out your comic and I like it a lot. I did some jumping around because you have a lot of chapters and enjoyed the ones I clicked on.

I know it can be hard to write character progression through gag type comics but that doesn't mean it should be abandoned entirely. Maybe outline some character arcs?

Your comic makes me think of the early 2000s when comics had their own sites and you traded them like secrets. (that's a compliment I swear)

Maybe consider compiling them and finding your niche through a kickstarter? I argue that you don't need to get better but that you do need exposure.

darthmongoose
Dec '19
Kelheor

I think to be balanced and fair, there have been comics of that genre that have successfully gone for long and successful runs, like say the work of Ken Akamatsu (Love Hina, Negima!), and there are certainly webcomics that have done well in that kind of vein, it's just that they're not chart-toppers. There's never been a comedy ecchi that hits the heights of Naruto or Homestuck, because ultimately there's just an enthusiastic, but narrow audience for it.

Sexy content (like a lot of niche interest content) is a weird double-edged sword, because it'll definitely help you build an audience and grab people much faster than the slow burn of building up a plot and characters, but it'll also ultimately limit growth unless there's something else really compelling in there. Unlike other niche interests, with sex stuff, if a person isn't into it, they're probably gonna go "EW, NOPE NOPE NOPE!", unlike say, a comic about knitting that has a great plot, where even if you're not into knitting, you might read it and enjoy, because being apathetic isn't the same as being uncomfortable, and not being able to casually read something when out and about means it needs to be extra good and definitely your thing for a person to make the effort to find a private place to read it.

carloswebcomic
Dec '19
elyss

I started webcomics in 2003, and that's exactly how it was.
God I miss those days!
I've done a few comics since then but they pretty much been all the same.
I often say that I have just one comic in me and that I've been doing it in one way or another since then, so yeah, I get what you say about feeling like a comic from the early 2000's, because it was conceived back then (although in a different shape).

I don't think I could do a Kickstarter. I have nothing to kickstart.
All my pages are different sizes, so I can't print them out, sadly (or fortunately, however one may see it).
Maybe I can kickstart a My Pet Succubus cake and everyone gets a slice!

carloswebcomic
Dec '19
darthmongoose

Yeah, like you said, you have to be damn good to keep traction, which is why I'm finding it difficult.
I should've made the comic about knitting.

nixxusnibelheim
Dec '19
carloswebcomic

Darthmongoose was pretty on the nose about what type of audience your work bring. Focus on that and commit 100%. Tapas and webtoons may not be the best platform where your comic can shine the best. You have a decent following in those platforms that should tell you that overall, your work entertains people, there is a demand for it but you compete in the wrong arena, the wrong pool especially if you are looking to be at the top of the food chain because ultimately in those 2 platforms, your comic is not the type of content people want to see on the main page.

Maybe you need to get better at finding the right voice for your work. There is probably publishers or hosting website that lean more toward mature contents where the audience is more welcome for the nature of your work :ok_hand:

To answer your original question, there is no shortcuts. Since you have a window of an hour, you can always read books about writing, listening to podcast about art/writing etc, you don't need to practice, sticking to theory is fine. Knowledges are everywhere, you just need to make the step to have room for them.

revisionstudios
Dec '19

Somewhere in this thread you mentioned that you don't read any comics. That's going to be your biggest failing--if you want to get better at creation, you need to consume it. You become a better writer, a better artist, by looking at other works and seeing how they do things and how they impact you. All of us are an amalgamation of our inspirations, so limiting your pool is only going to hurt you.

There are no shortcuts, but I do think you can ease off the pressure on yourself. Find techniques that make your page production faster, make compromises on quality and detail. Take it down from 2 patreon drawings to 1 a week. Hell, you could probably taper that off to 1 exclusive a MONTH. Most of them are only paying you $1 a month since you have no tiers, so why break your back putting out an excessive amount of extra content? They're following you because they like your work, and 90% of them aren't going to bat an eye if you ease off the exclusives to have more time to yourself or to improve your craft. You need a better work life balance and throwing yourself into more work isn't the solution.

JRHoch
Dec '19
darthmongoose

Okay people, I'm going to say it: I'm now the biggest darthmongoose fan. And it's not just my soft spot for straight-talking lesbians (pun intended). Preach!

carloswebcomic
Dec '19
nixxusnibelheim

I'm not even sure if the audience even exists.
This makes things even worse, because it means that no matter what I do, I'm screwed.
The only place where I've found any audience is here on Tapas, and to some degree, Webtoons. And these places are not my audience either, so basically, I may not have an audience at all.

LCT_m_a_d
Dec '19

However, my best is not good enough to compete with the extremely talented and skilled creators that are at the top of the food chain. Not even close.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

the remainder of the week is spent doing 2 exclusive drawings for my Patreon, and I barely make it. I literally have no spare time to put any more work into this.

What kind of drawings?

Eightfish
Dec '19

I feel like 15 hours is a lot of time to spend on one page. I don't know how much time other people spend, but I do about 4 hours / page. I have a looser, sketchier style than your's and less detailed pages.

Looking at your pages, your art is very smooth and clean. It's clear you took a lot of time to get it that way. But maybe if it's burning you out you don't need to do so much? Maybe look for ways to take less time on a page instead of ways to improve your art. I think you could get 90% of the polish with like 60% of the work

jcmraz
Dec '19

You really want to get better? Head over to www.penciljack.com12

These guys are the real deal, professional comic artists and if you listen they will be more than happy to get you thinking about the medium in ways you probably never considered before. You NEED to be okay with criticism though. These guys are good. They definitely know better than you or I. :slight_smile: So if you're serious, that's a great resource. You can take a look at my comic, Runner and how it changes throughout it's run of 28 pages throughout 2019 and you can see the amount that I grew and it was in no small part because of their help

Eightfish
Dec '19
darthmongoose

I second this. His comic does heavily come off as "sexy lesbians written by a man" and I don't think it appeals to a lot of people on this site. I also have a feeling most readers on webcomic sites are female.

Agree that he might have better luck promoting on Reddit. Or Twitter, maybe? Or DeviantArt? The comic reminds me a bit of that old Hipstergirl and Gamergirl comic I used to see floating around. I wonder how that one got popular?

skicoak
Dec '19
carloswebcomic

In the words of John McClane, "Welcome to the party pal!"

I'm one of your subscribers who's been following you for awhile now. I can speak on the fact that it's the craftsmanship of your strip that keeps me coming back. I enjoy the character relationships and some of the gags but it's the QUALITY of your work that's the draw.

Much like my fandom of R. Crumb, I don't necessarily share your passions and kinks. I'm a big fan of your art and storytelling.