LGBTQ+ perspective on BL/GL (+lgbt comic promos)

[phoenixrenaissance]

I've heard people making the same argument against the use of BL these days.

[Sky-Chau]

And theres actually room to speculate that a good way to get young girls to read good lgbt rep made by lgbt people is to label it BL.

At the same time though, labeling as BL is a death sentence in queer circles.

If its going to be a genre it should be broader and inclusive of trans media aswell, if for no other reason than to make people looking for problematic yoai sift through good piles of good and diverse rep to find it. The category should be LGBT or queer, not BL.

Basically catfishing with same sex media.

[UrMom]

For a while I was pretty irked about cis/het people writing gay romance due to experience I've had, being one of the toxic ex-fans back in high school. Although I've chilled out on it over the past couple years, a friend of mine also sent me a link to this article which really opened things up for me regarding fiction and artistic freedom.

I myself have a comic an lgbt+ cast, buuut it's not a romance, and it's also a depressing read so it doesn't quite fit here. I will say, while people are free to create whatever they want, I do like how BL/yaoi is starting to expand a little. The subgenre has come a long way since I was a kid.

[elyss]

Yeah unfortunately @phoenixrenaissance . I agree with you @Sky-Chau. It's a genre that needs to be broadened. Unfortunately, by the time a sub genre somes up, it's been slapped on the problematic content much like yaoi and bl. BL used to be soft stuff like my favorite BL mangaka Junko, but now it's being slapped on Yaoi content.

[Sky-Chau]

You'd be surprised.
The demand for casual rep is way higher than it used to be within the community.

In fact I've seen alot of people complaining about the insistence on making every story that features a queer main character about the struggles of being clear.

People no longer like being reminded that the world they live In is unsafe and are now shifting toward escapist rep where queer characters simply exist in a world free of homophobia and transphobia. In a world where no orientation or gender is weird, or particularly noteworthy.

Like solarfunk zombieland fills this niche as the story while literally gay isn't about being gay. If either the main character or the two suitors were gender bent the plot would be the same. Honestly if the plot hinges on the fact that a character is gay and it's not a political awareness piece, chances are it wasn't good rep in the first place.

[JRHoch]

Afterlifer | Tapas

A fantasy comic about a gay teen, who isn't quite comfortable in his own skin. Labeled BL because there are strong romantic and coming of age elements to it. I'm all for transforming the BL tag because it's a much larger tent of readers.

The problem with the LGBT label is that each letter represents a very different and diverse group of people, not all of whom share the same interests and struggles. It's kind of like the "people of color" tag. What unites us is the discrimination against us, not necessarily how we live our lives.

[Sky-Chau]

It would have its flaws, but even in the case of the poc example, a poc genre would be a refreshing thing for readers who are sick to death of hearing about white people.

Or even white people who want to get a immersed in a story written in another culture but dont have any particular country in mind.

[GabiWolf]

I don't mind BL/GL because at the time I was hitting puberty fan fiction was the only media where I saw people 'like me'. I remember the first time I got an LGBTQ book from books a million it was the stereotypical 'tragic lesbian story' where the women never finds love because love can only be found in the arms of the opposite gender. With shipping and fan fiction and fandom I found a group of people that made me believe true love happens for everyone, even if they did make it fetish-y it a bit.

I have two webcomics and I started both because I wanted to make something where people can see themselves. One of my characters is based off a friend of mine, who had and is still having a hard time being a gay man of color, coming out to his family and just loving himself. I wanted to show people that you can be a hero, you can be someone special, you can find love,no matter the color of your skin, or your orientation.
I work in a library now and I wish I had as much inclusive median when I was growing up. I love that books show mixed families, my parents always got stares, and people would try to tell me my mom isn't my mom. I love that books tell LGBTQ stories without making them tragic. That's what I want to do to. Just tell a story where the characters happen to be LGBTQ+.

Well anyway, after my passionate rant, here are my comics.

Grimoire Athenaeum | Tapas

Passage | Tapas

[Iris-Grimoire]

Though BL/yaoi hardly is ALL about toxic relationships and cliche fests, just take one look at what gets displayed on Tapas. A LOT of good representation, but also a lot of the previously mentioned 'obscenely rich CEO wants to get into my pants and stalks me everywhere! How romantic!'. It's way too easy to get the impression we never left 2008 and it can get pretty bad, just like conflating furries as aaaalll people into fursuits and other things I'd rather not bring up.

And that's kind of why people really want series marketed as casually LGBT+, but then you can't always go with that because there's a ton of fans that come with exact expectations of that comic and it can hurt more than help that you aren't in the face about it. It's kind of why I don't tag mine as LGBT+ despite the entire main cast with one exception being in some part of it, because it gets brought up every now and then and very little about the story derives solely from their orientation. I kinda wanted that fantasy story where elves could be black and latinx and people are openly LGBT+ and the story isn't about oppression (though it has prejudices that are part of other things, because I wanted to tie it into specific lore), but it feels like I went to the entire other end and it's not clear enough.

Well, that's a "good" first impression for someone, but since it's a good promo place as any, here's my fantasy story with a bi protagonist and his gay x2, ace, lesbian and demi buddies and a transmale boss, and many others. :>

Splitting Image | Tapas

[Kura]

At the same time though, labeling as BL is a death sentence in queer circles.

I hate that this is true >< it's really frustrating. It's also something I CAN'T SEEM TO COMMUNICATE IS ACTUALLY AN ISSUE IN THE LGBT+ COMMUNITY TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF IT. Everyone outside it think I'm making shit up and that LGBT+ LOVE BL because 'representation'

But then when I don't label it as BL, so that I can try and market it to LGBT+ readers, which is who the comic is more made for, I get readers on tapas complaining that I NEED to label it as BL.

There is no winning. I just want to tell my story with LGBT+ characters while having the very horrible and unfortunate limitations of only having 'BL' to choose from as a genre to represent it.

[JRHoch]

I think stating BL is death in queer circles is an overstatement. I have a number of gay readers for my webcomic. Maybe that's it, it's fine for gay readers, but not queer ones. But the gays and the girls who like gays are a bigger audience than the queers.

[Kiweevil]

I'm not straight but I write straight characters. I think straight people are very capable of writing lgbt+ characters if they know what they're doing. Though I did notice that the ones that create poorly written gay fetish stuff are the same kinda people to do it with straight relationships as well. I think there's just a thing going around with these cheaply written toxic relationships in the media.

[Kura]

But the gays and the girls who like gays are a bigger audience than the queers.

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I..

Ok... I REALLY don't mean to go off topic... I know that the word queer is being reclaimed by the LGBT+ community... but like... don't use it in that way in that context please?? Like everyone under another a letter that doesn't fall under 'gay' is the 'other' It's uhh... it's not right.

But yeah, it's an issue with gay readers I know too (including me, I find some issues in it too and I AM a gay reader believe it or not), but obviously it not ALL gay readers, but generally about the same amount of gay readers that are in the LGBT+ community seem to be offended by it as compared to any other orientation represented in the LGBT+ umbrella.

Keep in mind that it's ALSO not a deal breaker for everyone in the LGBT+ community, but it is a 'red flag' to mean "most likely something I don't want to read" and a very 'hot topic' discussion / debate that will pop up in communities. You'll find a common quote that goes around for LGBT+ webcomic lovers that goes usually something along the lines of "If it has a BL tag, I will refuse to read it." Followed by a very long explanation of the differences between a BL story and a gay story. Which also usually eventually is followed up with a "I really wish there was just a general LGBT tag instead of just the GL and BL ones..." Or in tapas's case... just the BL one...

[krzuniverse]

As a gay guy, my goal is to create a series that's empowering for the LGBT+ community. So here's my project: it's called KRZ and it's dark-fantasy/action genre.

Stars a gay protagonist and the story will feature a number of bisexual, lesbian, gender fluid, and transgender characters

KRZ: Tiger Winds | Tapas

[IdiotWithPencil]

I think the biggest problem with BL and GL is the same problem with the Romance genre, as in it's not a good depiction of romance.

Hear me out, most BL and GL by their definition goes into the romance genre, since gay traits can't be shown in an organic way unless their in a romantic context (unless you want a stereotypical gay character in your story of course) so as it can only be shown in an organic way in romance it falls into the trap that all romance fall into. How do you make a normal romance entertaining?

now I don't know the answer since I really don't like the romance genre, be it straight or gay, I've tried but it's all so weird either the characters are genuinely horrible people or are just stupid and melodramastic -_-

here's the only romance story I actually enjoy and funnily enough it's a gay one
https://hazylondon.com

[IdiotWithPencil]

it's fine for gay readers, but not queer ones.

Um could you maybe elaborate on the difference here?
I thought queer and gay was the same thing =/

[buttersphere]

Hello! I come from growing up in a religious country where there wasn't any established lgbt+ communities that could help me understand things like this. The first kind of lgbt+ comic I got into was of the BL/yaoi category. Before then I didn't even know this was a possibility for guys, which also expanded my horizon as I started proactively searching for other LGBT+ comics. (Figured out I was a fantastic lesbian from all the GL/yuri I read. Took awhile though haha)

So coming across this thread has got me thinking back on all the stories I read, and I agree. A lot of the early stories of representation were really harmful. So although the widespread use of the tags helped me initally, I barely touch the BL/yaoi category now, except for a few with very compelling stories and more realistic portrayals of relationships. I still use the tag GL in searching for comics to read though which might be more of my own bias than any other reason. Forums like this are also helping me find comics that have characters/stories that touch on the other spectrums of gender identity which is wonderful! Just so that I can be more aware though, are there more acceptable tags beyond this I'm just ignorant of?

Thank you for your time! I'll drop my short comic here if anyone would like a quick read of something silly.

The Right Knight | Tapas

[Sky-Chau]

The queer isn't reclaimed rhetoric is actually made to exclude LGBT folks that people such as terfs, aphobes, and transmeds dont want to include.

It's a safety net for people like aces and trans women who may not feel safe specificfying in what exact way they're LGBTQ.

It's a safety net and by calling it offensive you are putting the people who need the word in actual danger.

Also academic uses of the word queer are pretty universally accepted ie: queer theory, queer studies.

[joannekwan]

I think the biggest problem with BL and GL is the same problem with the Romance genre, as in it's not a good depiction of romance.

I agree with this. I generally avoid most romance in the general media unless I want some cheap laughs and eye-rolling situations. Like so much of the drama is forced and contrived through misunderstandings, jealousy, over-bearing exes, etc.

But of course I do stumble upon gems once in a while. I discovered two of my favorite mangaka from browsing BL collections, Est Em and Natsume Ono.
These two handle their characters as people first and foremost without the usual tropes you see in most other BL, and their writing is mature and down-to-earth. In my formative years, their books really inspired my own style of storytelling.

As much as I dislike the majority of romance in media, it's my favorite genre to write. I just want to put my spin on it, ya know? To depict non-fluffy relationships, to depict some deeper emotions, to create something that resonates with me. To me, my characters are real people. I'm just a witness telling their stories in a matter-of-fact manner.
And as far as terms go, I will always categorize my mxm romances in romance. There is just too much expectation for BL titles to follow certain 'guidelines' (like being East Asian-inspired in art and writing, having an 'uke' and 'seme', so on) that I feel do not fit with my stories.

Eh, all my stories include lgbt+ characters/couples, but the ones that feature romances prominently are Heavy Horns, Erie Waters, and At Ease (all are comics).

[IdiotWithPencil]

like being East Asian-inspired in art and writing, having an 'uke' and 'seme', so on

ugh don't even get me started on that BS. It's horrible since it basically tries to boil down romance into a power dynamic.
where one is the dominant an the other one is submissive.

I don't know about the rest but I have never seen a normal couple where one clearly is being dragged around by the other too things they don't like or are being almost forced into situations they are clearly uncomfortable with by their partner.