Jul 2017
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NanettesClouds
Jul '17
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Hey everyone, welcome back to another week of NGT, where we share weird advice that's too small and specific to bring up in most other situations! This week's topic comes from a suggestion by @yondoloki!

This week we're talking about Movement, Lines of Action, and Flow!

How do we guide a reader's eye through a page? What can we do to make that page feel alive? What makes a dynamic pose? How can we use flow to change how our audience engages with our work?

This week I wanna share this page from Scott Pilgrim:
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In this sequence, Bryan Lee O'Malley uses flow (and also that thematic-panel-structure technique I talked about last week) to show how Scott's life has literally revolved around Knives and Ramona.

The flow of the spreads sends you flying around and back to the center of each page. O'Malley uses pretty much every compositional trick in the book to do this, especially guiding lines.

I'm excited to see what everyone else has to say about Flow this week! Also, feel free to let me know if you have a suggestion for an NGT thread!

You can read last week's thread here: https://forums.tapas.io/t/share-your-nitty-gritty-tips-panel-structure/1904413

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keii4ii
Jul '17

Am I the only one who instinctively reads the panel 2 (tall panel) after looking at the three panels on the left? It's because the lines in the environment of panel 1 is leading UP, and there's nothing of interest in the upper part of panel 2, so my brain decides that's not the next panel. So if there's something like a speech balloon up there that isn't shown, that could make a difference.

EDIT: It's also because that red path wants me to go RIGHT TO LEFT for the two small panels. In a comic that I assume isn't meant to be read that way normally?

NanettesClouds
Jul '17

I suppose thats a risk you run when using weird panel structures :S For me Scott's eyeline and the bus-hand-pole thing does enough to catch my eye and move it in the right direction. But it's also a sequence that doesn't rely very heavily on a linear order of events.

Kaykeactual fraggle
Jul '17

I agree with Keii. Despite Scott's eyeline looking toward the tall panel, my eyes want to look at the two below the first panel.

But having the panels of the girls in the center of the pages and having them be higher contrast does make them feel like they're the focal point and that the rest of the page is a frame for them, which gets the same point across.

MinNCompany
Jul '17

I think this is still one of the best videos I've watched about gesture drawing: The Seven L's of Gesture Drawing

The 7 Ls of Gesture Drawing

If you don't want to watch the entire video (or have trouble keeping track), here's my notes:

Before you begin
- Draw at a rate faster than what you’re comfortable with
- By drawing faster, you will be less meticulous
Draw Loosely
Draw Lightly
- Little pressure
- More feeling than drawing
Draw with Lines of Action
- What’s being tugged on?
- Maybe exaggerate to better show the action
- You want the line to dominate
Draw with Lines of Rhythm
- Curves that flow together in continuity
- Rather than accurate anatomy, the feeling the lines convey are more important
Draw Large
- Look for big shapes
- By capturing the torso, entire figure can be captured
Draw Long
- We have a tendency to draw a part at a time
- Better to focus on the overall movement
- Rather than piece by piece, draw a long line to capture a pose more strongly
- Torso, legs, maybe even arm
Draw Lively
- Draw people moving
- Capture movement/things in motion
- Rather than refined detail, capturing movement is more important

UzukiCheverie
Jul '17
keii4ii

Yeah, I agree with both Kayke and Keiiiiii. To be perfectly honest, I don't think these panels were the proper way to visualize panel flow, because frankly, these panels are sort of all over the place, and I don't see how you can properly build a comic with interesting panel flow when it's set up to the restrictions of left to right American comics.

Yes, this is a valid point:

But that's more about the topic of focal points than comic flow. We know these characters are the main focus of the comic (within its context) because they're drawn in a way that's highlighted as such. But in the context of panel flow, these pages are sort of a reading mess.

I googled "comic panel flow" and found an example that presents it much better IMO

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Here's the same panel with the arrows (I put this example last so you don't automatically visualize the guidance arrows in the first version):

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This example presents itself better because it keeps everything in the same general reading direction without throwing panels in places where they don't work. They keep the eye moving in the same direction, from panel to panel, character to character. There's no backtracking, there's no having to stop and figure out which panel is next because the panels, the characters, and the text bubbles guide the narrative along in the right direction. Unlike the Scott Pilgrim example where it seems it jumps from left to right to right to left without any real ruler of guidance.

There are definitely examples in Scott Pilgrim where proper panel flow is a lot more apparent, but those specific ones weren't really as successful IMO.

NanettesClouds
Jul '17

Ahh yes that is a much better example of flow, I was more focused on showing how you can use panel flow as a narrative tool, which I think those pages do very well. I guess I didn't get that across very well. Thank you for finding a much better example to share!

edmourabarbosa
Jul '17
UzukiCheverie

I don't really disagree with you here. These pages from Marvel do present a proper flow, but in my opinion the Scott Pilgrim's page example is about how not to folow this basic rule of flow and still make it work.
We are talking about two very different comics here. One is a industry standard, applying the basic for the mainstream readers. If you do anything weird, people won't like and will stop buying. The other is an indie comic that aims to be different, so it can experiment on many fronts. I have to say that the flow on Scott Pilgrim's page is really interesting, mainly because it lacks text, so your eyes can wander through the page freely. In the end, you are the one who decides how to read that page.

Migue
Jul '17
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I think that example of Scott Pilgrim are not really good examples, the page with Knives is a-OK BUT the page with Ramona at the center is really misleading. It's a really good example on how a wrong panel structure can be so confusing.

The way I read is like this: Panel 1, Scott is serious, panel 2, thinks of something good, panel 3, thinks of Ramona, panel 4, put his hat on and now is happy, panel 5, gets of the bus.

Because panel 4 is so large it sucks the atention of the reader and misleads you to think it's panel 2. That's why it's important to always keep the large panel first and have the little ones just to complement the big one with smaller actions. If not, it will lead to chaos.

And don't get me wrong, chaos can be awesome and I'm all in for weird flows, but I think it must be reserved for chaotic scenarios, like this one from Hawkeye by David Aja

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The big panel has the two characters diving into a pool, the flow is chaotic and can be anything that the reader wants it to be. All the small panels are just there to give context and acknowledge of everything that is going on around the action.

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In this other example the panels with the arrows flying and Clint tackling a goon can be a little confusing, but I think it doesn't break the flow by having a little detailed panel with just two arrows and below a high contrast area that will catch the eye of the reader. I think it's a really bold move and one that can be easily done wrong.

punkarsenic
Jul '17

is this flow so chaotic? it seems to me that all the leading lines down from top left to bottom right create a very firm and distinct flow, that ends at 'dont die.' this page is 99% aspect-to-aspect panel transitions, so it could arguably not have a flow and just be read in any order. thats less chaotic and more, like, just absent. But the parts that should be read in order (splash, guns, people getting shot) has a very clear flow.

Migue
Jul '17

In the end the page is narrating a story, of course I agree that it can be simplified to just Hawkeye and Kate jumping to a pool and then the face of Hawkeye saying "Don't die", but I think is cool that those 2 panels are surrounded by other 10 panels that are not consecutive to one another. By the way they are arranged it may seem that they are aspect-to-aspect, but if you look closely and alter the order, using the same pictures, you may actually build a subject-to-subject or even an action-to action sequence.

I think of chaos as the absense of order, you said it yourself, the page lacks flow and order, perhaps we may have a different interpretation of the concept but I think this page is a really good example of chaotic flow and panel order.

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly but what I meant was to show a weird panel structure, similar to the Scott Pilgrim example, that can work if done with another kind of action. If it reads well is because the artist has done a really great job to let the reader go where it's okay to wander but get him back on tracks when the story needs to continue. Perhaps a better example of a no-flow, 100% chaotic page could be a non-sequitur page, but I can't find a good example for that :stuck_out_tongue:

scarlet_wings_kaili
Jul '17

Speaking of chaotic flows I really like Sandman Overture series that Neil Gaiman and JH Williams did.
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It really adds to the surrealism of the story. There was this other page I really liked where the flow lead you to flip the page upside down but I can't find it as I'm visiting my parents and far from my comic collection lol. Maybe someone else will know what I'm talking about??

That's an interesting way to see it. I see chaos as more as a state where things come together without clear directions. I do think that chaos can be organized to some degree thou. Like which parts of the chaos is being shown and how is it displayed is somewhat organizing it. Sorry if I don't make sense :confused:

Some tricks I learned from making my own comics are:
If you're making comics for print, do two pages at once as it will make you consider how the panels flow from one page to the next.
Where a character's eyes are looking is great for leading eyes.
Speech bubbles can also guild the direction people read.
Panel shape and direction can also be used to lead the eye

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Eyes tend to go to areas with high contrast. I think using heavy blacks in one area will also cause eyes to go there.
The thicker a line is, the more directional weight it pulls...