No More New and Noteworthy on the Front Page?

NagashiKhan 2015-03-24 16:52:13 UTC #26

You know what I find interesting? How we scramble at ways to reach viewers on a site pandered towards reaching viewers with our comics. How did it come to this? I'm thankful for the platform, but there is still so much to be desired. Related suggestions? Genre searches? Why not broaden and reduce the number of tiers?

I'm sure the staff understands the desire to be seen, but how can they find so much trouble with giving artists a voice on a platform like this? I find it so strange that it's so difficult to find a viewership that we are literally picking apart the design of the site in terms of good comics going unnoticed. Is it really the lack of good web design? Or is it the lack of adventurous readers? I feel like we shouldn't have to sweat blood trying to get people to read our comic on a webcomic website. Isn't it the least bit strange to you? Maybe I'm just babbling nonsense

michaelson 2015-03-24 17:02:10 UTC #27

We played around with that idea but ultimately it felt like we were punishing creators. Right now the algorithms are still collecting data and we're still making tweaks to it. We can only improve it by collecting more data, so eventually we'll be seeing a lot less overlap.

Haha, we wanted to change up the wording just because the old system was set up in a way where if you created a series and uploaded an episode that didn't get any traction in the beginning, then we couldn't feature you (based on how the system was set up). But say that the series gets a lot more traction on episode 2 or 3 that they might have uploaded a few months later - we wanted to be able to still feature them. With the old system we couldn't and again that sort of felt like we were punishing the creators.

Yeah, that's understandable - this is both v1 of the new homepage and the new algorithm. We'll be tweaking everything to improve how it functions. All feedback is welcome!

Hm, that's not true at all. We've been very transparent with how the front page works, I've written a couple posts about how the old "New and Noteworthy" system functioned (i.e. new content with good engagement numbers which was an amalgamation of views, likes, subscribers, comments and shares). The only part of the site that really had any editorial control was the spotlight section at the very top.

There's a time decay that will reset the board periodically throughout the day.

Working on that right now - you should expect to see one in your inbox later this evening! edit: tomorrow. Sorry for the delay!

We folded it into the trending algorithm (you will not believe how many times I've misspelled this word today) - so expect to see yourself there again

edit: thanks for the all responses! i'll be back soon to respond to some more questions and concerns. remember that today is the first day of the algorithm and it hasn't really collected enough data yet. i'll be shooting out an email soon, trying really hard to get everyone back on the mailing list. looking forward to seeing your responses!

Doubtcent 2015-03-24 17:32:12 UTC #28

The biggest problem I have is that a lot of series that have not updated in months are still occupying top positions. Why? Because that is what the readers see first. When new readers see the top ten that have always been there or have the most subscribers, they very often subscribe to them. Even if those series may never make another episode again, the way that the site is laid out keeps the popular popular because they are still listed as popular, thus getting them more popular.

There are a few series that I say deserve those spots, the biggest example being Gamercat, even HJ story, because they still update content regularly. That makes a lot of sense. What does't make sense is to keep series that have not updated in the longest time at the top of the lists. Automatically it removes spots for potential series to rotate in and keep the popular, popular. This may be getting fixed already, but for the time I've been here, the creators listed at the top when you click on "creators" are the same and have been the same, and probably will stay the same unless something is done about it.

I get an email notification after two weeks of neglecting a series wondering what's up. Shouldn't the many series that have been gone much longer than that, say a month or two, be automatically marked as "Complete"? That way, their series is out of the way for others to take its place, and if a creator wants to continue it, they would have to un-mark it or create a new series from scratch. That, in my opinion is much more fair to newer or older series that are still being updated.

ck_tapastic 2015-03-24 18:38:56 UTC #29

We're constantly tweaking and updating the Trending section based on the feedback. Purpose of that section is to show which comics are fast-rising and up-and-coming.

We also hope the newly introduced "Fresh" tab gives more exposure to freshly published comics.

brianorlando 2015-03-24 20:30:44 UTC #30

Hey everyone,

Please check out the updates here:

Hopefully this will answer additional questions. Thanks!

kambreapratt 2015-03-25 14:06:51 UTC #31

It makes sense that if the categories are "Popular" and "Trending" a lot of comics will appear in both. People will come into the site seeing the "Popular" comics and clicking those, which in turn will turn them into "Trending" comics. Of course, if you have a lot of subscribers and you update you could move your comic into the trending by people coming in to see new pages, which could also put it into "popular".

There will be a lot of cross over.

keii4ii 2015-03-25 19:27:40 UTC #32

I understand why! Doesn't mean I like it. The purpose of those sections is to highlight popular comics that you might not have checked out before, and overlaps defeat that purpose.

PotooGryphon 2015-03-25 20:44:02 UTC #33

Sound like the team sees this and are on top of it working to make the two categories different.

@brianorlando made a comment on it in the other forum topic:

Exeivier 2015-03-25 20:48:33 UTC #34

Except the "fresh" tab is still heavily hided, i can understand you guys don't wanting the majority of comics making ugly your frontpage, you put the popular ones there, and when you click "comics" surprise! popular is the no. 1 tab again, (thats really redundant, and design wise, it's guiding new readers to the popular sections only) then you find fresh in the third row of tabs, so that's like 2 pages of lurking level of hiding.

don't get me wrong, i'm a graphic designer and i know a lot about merchandising, i understand 100% the reasons behind this, what i don't like it's the whole "we're with the little guys!" speech. it really comes as a little hypocritic.

If i had to make a wild guess, i think Tapastic would benefit more of a few comics with lots of backers and money incoming, than a great quantity of comic creator with the samenumber of readers, like a piramid scheme, but that's just me doing the X-files Mulder theory, i may be wrong.I speak for the actions i see.

AlkseeyaKC 2015-03-25 22:09:35 UTC #35

No more collections? I loved those! T^T

I don' really like the new front page. It all seems like the same comics over and over again. You guys need to come up with ways of OTHER comics to get noticed. Other wise why should a comic even USE this site?

michaelson 2015-03-25 22:35:36 UTC #36

However, I could argue that if a creator worked really hard to get to that spot, haven't they sort of earned it? It'd be one thing if those series remained on top and DIDN'T get any traction, but they do, which shows that the series still has a lot of intrinsic value. Just something to consider.

We are filtering inactive series for the Trending section because we feel that it's more related to series that are in the moment. So something like that makes a lot of sense to us.

I've covered this topic in the other thread: here

We are already working on changing the algorithms to introduce more diversity in both sections, but you'll have to remember that both of those sections are entirely community driven, there's no editorial curation. So it's not really us coming up with ways for other comics to get noticed, it's really up to the creator - you get what you put in.

ck_tapastic 2015-03-25 22:38:32 UTC #37

Links to the Collections page will be added so you can at least discover. Bear with us!

brianorlando 2015-03-25 22:42:59 UTC #38

Hey everyone, we adjusted the Trending section! Feel free to take a look and let us know what you think.

http://tapastic.com/browse?browse=TRENDING

Iron 2015-03-25 23:01:08 UTC #39

Looking good!
I actually discovered something new!

brianorlando 2015-03-25 23:16:04 UTC #40

Very cool. Well it's doing its job then.

puppetbomb 2015-03-25 23:32:07 UTC #41

This isn't a question of "earning" a spot on the front page but pushing down new content in favor of the old. I also find, "worked really hard to get that spot" comes off as patronizing (It doesn't matter if people can only find you if they know exactly what the title of your comic is! If you work hard enough you'll be as popular as that person with a spot on the front page where 100% of the traffic sees them!)

I still don't understand why you're focusing on "improving" algorithms when that is not the answer to the problem.

People want to choose their own reading material. Just because a majority of popular comics on this site are slice of life doesn't mean I want to read it too. I want old west adventure. I want a tragic Inuit romance. I want crazy detailed 17th century Russian court intrigue.

You can "improve" an algorithm all you want but if I want something, you either have it or you don't. Improve your search function and let the readers decide what they want to see.

NagashiKhan 2015-03-26 01:03:19 UTC #42

The new in favor of the old is what the trending engine is for, as well as the fresh engine, which MichaelSon already stated.

However, what I DO find really aggrivating about the idea that "they worked hard to get there" is that I absolutely do not believe hard work is what affects the popularity of a comic here. There are some really, REALLY sub-par comics that get a crap ton of attention, while some that are just WAY too good to be overlooked are, indeed, overlooked. Is that hard work that's getting them there?

But I think the absolute WORST is the fact that slice of life comics get picked day in and day out. The same dumb jokes from 90's Sunday Funnies strips reformatted to be read on a phone and set to maybe or maybe not good, skilled artistic visuals. Don't get me wrong, I am subscribed to my fair share of Slice of Life comics here. But man oh man, "hard work" is hardly the term I'd use for their popularity, nor their selection for daily comic snack features that pretty much promise them success. That I absolutely refuse to get behind.

*side note, there are some popular comics that I do believe have had effort and elbow grease put in, and that I can't tale away from. I just don't think hard work is THE factor in popularity on Tapastic

michaelson 2015-03-26 01:30:54 UTC #43

But we're talking about punishing creators for growing their audience and creating content that readers want to engage with. If any older series gets a lot of comments, shares, likes and subscribers, then I don't think it's a bad thing to have it appear on the frontpage. Because the front page has a decay rate, the likelihood that it will stay there over time is relatively low. A good example of this is Fisheye Placebo, a series that hasn't been updated for over a year. When we reset the homepage, it was on the Popular section because regardless if it was or wasn't updated, there are still a lot of people reading that series and engaging with it. But today, it's no where to be found. There are checks and balances for this.

I didn't mean it to be patronizing. Sorry if I came off that way.

We are focusing on this because creators have been asking for it and we feel that a more community driven site with less editorial control will ultimately create a more meaningful experience where readers have an impact on what gets featured.

We are working on our search function but a lot of that has to do with restructuring the site to function more on an episode level. It is the direction that we are heading towards, it's definitely the main focus of future builds of our apps. Tagging on an episode level will be important, and we'd also have to bolster down on how we handle meta data.

Not only that but the app's dynamic feed will respond to how you interact with it. If you're interested in content related to "old west adventures" then we'd begin to populate your feed with content of that genre that you haven't subscribed too.

There are a lot of pieces that need to be built to get there and we are building them.

NagashiKhan:

However, what I DO find really aggrivating about the idea that "they worked hard to get there" is that I absolutely do not believe hard work is what affects the popularity of a comic here. There are some really, REALLY sub-par comics that get a crap ton of attention, while some that are just WAY too good to be overlooked are, indeed, overlooked. Is that hard work that's getting them there?

But I think the absolute WORST is the fact that slice of life comics get picked day in and day out. The same dumb jokes from 90's Sunday Funnies strips reformatted to be read on a phone and set to maybe or maybe not good, skilled artistic visuals. Don't get me wrong, I am subscribed to my fair share of Slice of Life comics here. But man oh man, "hard work" is hardly the term I'd use for their popularity, nor their selection for daily comic snack features that pretty much promise them success. That I absolutely refuse to get behind.

I should clarify what I mean by "hard work." I'm not talking about the work put into the craft of making a comic - I think we can all agree that all art takes time and that you could spend years making a comic and get a handful of readers while someone else can generate a meme and get millions of viewers.

When I talk about hard work, I'm referring to the act of marketing yourself, growing an audience, engaging with that audience and being part of a bigger community. I think all of these take an incredible amount of effort. It's not enough to just make art anymore, you really have to put yourself out there - that's hard work.

With over 7,000 series on Tapastic, there are tons of series that don't get enough love. The editorial staff is WELL AWARE of that, we read a majority of the episodes posted on Tapastic - regardless of whether they're popular or not. So how can we help more people?

The new front page is supposed to be a step towards that direction - the trending section is going to reset frequently, giving more creators a chance to be featured. We've already made some tweaks so you're going to be seeing less and less overlap. If you try really hard to get your comic out there, and engage with the people reading your comics, if they like your comics, if they subscribe to them, share it, and comment then you will appear on the trending section.

So, for the daily snack and daily feature where we focus a lot on slice of life content - as stated earlier, we're working on some really cool stuff for a more dynamic feed that will feature less and less of that content if you're not interested in it. It's just a way to get newer readers into the habit of reading comics everyday which in the long runs helps us all out.

All right, think I'm going to call it a day for now. Feel free to tag me in any posts and I'll respond later.

Thanks!

PotooGryphon 2015-03-26 01:31:17 UTC #44

Mmmm, that's a bit subjective and up to each person's own opinion of what makes a comic sub-par and anothers not. Each artist performs to the best of their ability. So in that case, we ALL work hard to create our comics. There are some artist that go above and beyond to effectively promote their own series, though. Perhaps this is the extra effort Michael is talking about?

All of this does seem to touch upon that age old argument of self-promotion and not relying solely on Tapastic to promote our series. My main concern was the two categories being too similar. However, it looks like that's being solved. I'm already see new material I've never seen in the categories, so thanks Tapastic team for that. I can get behind this new setup.

Really I'm just looking for variety. Old or new, active, completed, inactive series are not big factors to me, I just want to see something different. All deserve a chance to be featured at the end of the day. I would also like to see a better tagging system and browsing my genre, however, I know these are things currently in the works so I'll be patient. haha

Kura 2015-03-26 01:54:05 UTC #45

It's working out for me much better with the changes, I'm actually finding new stuff on this site for once via the trending. Still a lot of duplicate entries but not enough in my opinion to make it look like the exact same list under a different name like before.