Preferred Gender Pronouns

[noxfox]

It's usually very clear when someone is intending to give offence, so clear in fact, it almost always goes without saying.

While that might be true irl, I find that online, it can be quite hard to tell sometimes. When it's just text, it can get awkward.

Bringing it back to this discussion, if someone said to me their preferred pronoun is 'ze' or 'ne' or 've', I'd tell them that I'm not going to say that, regardless of whether they think I'm needlessly being a jerk or offensive, or whatever. I have my reasons, and yes, those reasons trump that person's comfort and/or mental wellbeing.

What alternative would you offer, however?

[nobody]

While that might be true irl, I find that online, it can be quite hard to tell sometimes. When it's just text, it can get awkward.

That's true. Also, offence doesn't need to be intentional to do harm. (Literally and figuratively speaking) Stepping on someone's toes intentionally is mean and causes pain. Stepping on someone's toes accidentally isn't mean, but it still causes pain. One can discuss the finer details of what people should "put up with" and not, but unintentional offence can still do harm, and sometimes it's worse than when it is in fact intentional.

And I think who you're offending is an important part of that conversation too. Is it a person in power? And how are you offending them? By ridiculing something they said or did? Or are you pointing at things that have to do with their gender, ethnicity, sexuality? Are you saying/doing things that reinforces harmful stereotypes about people that are still facing oppression because of these stereotypes?

In terms of preferred pronouns, I don't personally know anyone that goes by other pronouns than the ones they've been assigned at birth. If someone asked me to use different pronouns I'd assume it wouldn't be that difficult for me to adjust

[scythe]

Point taken, and it's something I've experienced plenty of times myself. I've also seen it almost everyday with partner. She reads me comments she gets out loud and gives them all kinds of emotions she can't possible infer just from the text. So you do have a point there. We probably all thought emoji's were dumb when we first saw them, but anyone who writes regularly online understands why we need them.

As to your question, my suggestion would be just to use he, she and they. I don't see why that's not enough.

[Delete]

Sorry I know this topic should be dead but I just want to say one more thing about the vegetarian pizza thing.

Last week me and my friend hosted a movie screening in a lecture hall at my school (the movie was Caddyshack). I went to grab pizza and a couple people who said they were going to the screening asked me to grab a vegetarian pizza for them and they said they would help pay for half of it. I get 1 meat pizza and 1 veggie pizza. I go to the movie screening and they ended up not showing up and I had to pay for the whole extra veggie pizza.

I don't care if it makes me look like a dick. Never again am I buying a vegetarian side for my events they just got to figure out their own shit.

[riverfur]

Okay so I know it's been months since you posted this but

I have my reasons, and yes, those reasons trump that person's comfort and/or mental wellbeing.

You...you're saying your reasons for refusing to incorporate someone's easy request into your speech around them...is more important...than that person's mental health??

[sadlittlespook]

I didn't realize how old this thread was, whoops! Sorry!

[scythe]

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

[riverfur]

Why though? I mean, it's your choice to think someone's preferred pronouns are strange/unnecessary, but isn't it easier for the both of you to just call them by that pronoun?

[scythe]

It might be easier for some people, might be harder for some, I can't really answer to that. I know, for myself, it would not be 'easy' to use a made-up pronoun of someones choosing simply because they asked me to. Though, I'm not particularly interested in 'easier', and even trough my instinct is to always be nice, I'm a principled person, and I strive to uphold those principles with everything I do, even when that makes myself and others uncomfortable.

Frankly, there are a myriad of reasons why I don't engage in this choose-your-own-pronoun trend, some of which I alluded to above, but really, all you need to know is that all things being equal, I treat people equally, which is to say, I make it a habit not to arbitrarily bestow on some people special treatment, simply because that's how they'd like it.

[scythe]

Case in point, the following article describes precisely what this relativist, "everyone has to accommodate my feelings" mindset leads to. A world of absurd censorship, unintelligible, meaningless newspeak, and coerced compliance, where the many are forced to accommodate the few, at the expense of common sense, freedom and dignity. Read what it says and tell me it resembles anything like a world in which you'd like to live, or simply a world that's even vaguely rational.

Alberta, Canada's Progressive New Government Bans the Words "Mother" and "Father" in Schools

[PocketFloral]

Personally, I don't really mind this direction/intentions of this school district. Yes, considering where our culture is they come across too strongly progressive and it'll make some people uncomfortable but I don't see anything wrong with allowing children to pick their own pronouns nor referring to parents as other terms.
These things are not just for the bettering of trans kids but everyone. Gender norms can have a harsh affect on how children identify themselves and telling them their biological sex does not define them solely allows for them to explore how they understand themselves in different, healthier ways.
The fact is, culture is an ever changing thing. We understand the world and ourselves totally different than people a 100 years ago for several reasons. Though the prominence of he/she pronouns seems like something that is unchangeable, untouchable, in the end they're just words used to understand ourselves and each other. As time goes on and people start to recognize that gender/gender roles aren't what they want to be defined by the use of different pronouns are going to be inevitably more common place.
In the end this isn't censorship because these children/parents are being forced to go to this school.

all you need to know is that all things being equal, I treat people equally, which is to say, I make it a habit not to arbitrarily bestow on some people special treatment, simply because that's how they'd like it.<

I wanted to say something about this point too. I understand everyone has a right to their own opinion and you definitely deserve to have your principles respected. But what your describing isn't equality. A doctor treating two different patients with the same medicine isn't treating them equally when one of the patients need a different medicine to get better. Traditional pronouns just feel natural because they are so prominent in our culture and that's why it doesn't feel like anything special when we refer to cis people by the appropriate pronouns. Yet in a sense those are their preferred pronouns, most cis people do not take well to being repeatedly misgendered.. And just like they have a right to be called by their preferred pronoun so does everyone else.

[scythe]

Let's be clear, what the Canadian government is introducing isn't anything close to a common sense approach to catering for trans individual's needs, rather it's a clear example of ideologically driven authoritarian overreach. Let's look at what they're doing.

1. Banning the words Mother and Father.
2. Removing all references to words that denote gender (him/her).
3. Encouraging self-identification of even sexual orientation among young children.
4. Encouraging the use of made-up pronouns like ze, zir, hir.
5. Allowing biologically male students to compete with biologically female students in sports.
6. Forcing girls who don't want to change with students who are biologically male to change somewhere else.

I don't see any of this as a considerate, reasonable approach to the handling of a sensitive issue. All I see is pointless censorship, ideologically driven relativism, and divisive authoritarianism. They're not just talking about referring to trans students as he or she, or non-binary identifying students as they, they're talking about restructuring society to cater specifically for a minuscule minority, who for the most part, probably want nothing to do with these kinds of draconian measures. Trans people don't use the words mother and father? Trans people want all gendered words banned? Now granted, I only know a few trans or non-binary identifying people, all online, but I've gone out of my way to better understand what they're going through by listening to discussions between a good number of them, and all those who when presented with this sort of thing agreed that they want nothing to do with this kind of extreme left ideology. As for the trans people, they seemed to just want to be left to transition to whichever gender they identify with and get on with their lives. Of course, I could be wrong on that, maybe I listen to the wrong podcasts.

The thing is, I make a point of arguing against all forms of relativism, no matter how benign or inconsequential the matter may seem at the time. This probably makes me appear unnecessarily antagonistic, and may lose me some friends from time to time, but I just can't sit silent when I see injustice being done. And I see all authoritarianism as an injustice, especially when it's ideologically driven. We must remember that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And this is so important to me because every concession society makes to this kind of relativist thinking, the closer we get to death by a thousand cuts, not to mention the closer we get to having to concede to more dangerous groups whose demands constitute a credible threat to civilised society, against which, having already conceded so much, we've left ourselves no defences. That is the only logical conclusion to increased censorship and ideologically-driven government policy.

[joannekwan]

I agree that institutionalized censorship isn't really helping anybody. What if some kid really wanted to write a poem about their mother at school and celebrate her? What if the kid's mother was trans who was once male and is now so proud to be female and a mom? Trying to be inclusive by excluding some words just doesn't make sense to me.

My thought is that language isn't the issue, but rather gender "norms" and stereotypes. For gods' sakes not every girl wants to be a frigging pink princess fairy and not every boy wants to be a rough and tumble tyke. Break down the establishment by breaking down what's "for girls" and what's "for boys" please.

And to be clear, I'm personally fine with they/xir/whatever else there is and I will happily address a person as such if they wish it. Just don't make me refer to everyone including myself as such.

[Kura]

sigh...

https://education.alberta.ca/media/1626737/91383-attachment-1-guidelines-final.pdf

I live in Alberta. There is no such ban. I believe that this is the document in question where the biggot that made these accusations pulled the claim from, and even when reading through the entire thing the closest thing I found to anything regarding that was "Example of best practice in action." Not a requirement or ban, but a suggestion and what was the most ideal practice. It was also for documentation and writing.

School forms, websites,letters, and other communications usenon-genderedand inclusive language (e.g., parents/guardians,caregivers,families, partners, “student” or “their” instead of Mr., Ms., Mrs., mother, father, him,her, etc.).

The paragraph right under was this.

Staff use appropriate language to acknowledge and communicate with families. If unsure of the appropriate language,they ask the family for guidance (e.g., how children refer to their parents and/or their parents’ partners).

If they want to be called mom and dad, then that is how to refer to them. If you're unsure ask. There was nothing on banning any pronouns or gender specific titles.

[mac]

idk if y'all realized this but...........

all pronouns are made up,,,, every single word is made up,,,,, god didnt hand moses a dictionary along w/ th ten commandments (if ur christian) we didnt find a fully fledged thought out dictionary in some neanderthals living space,,,,, every word that u see today probably hasnt existed at one point so to shun neopronouns as """""made up""""" is flat out malarkey lol might as well shun ppl usin he and she pronouns too if we're gonna go that route

[scythe]

I was waiting for that one to pop up. Sorry to be blunt, but grammar aside, your line of reasoning lacks sophistication. Think it through and take it to its logical conclusion.

[mac]

okay i get it,,,, you dont have a counter argument so you attack my casual tone,,, i get it ',:)c anyway this isnt the right website to be starting discourse,,, shunning neoprounouns because you think theyre made up is illogical because literally every darn pronoun has been made up,,,

[scythe]

Yeah, I took a swipe, I couldn't help myself. But I don't think it changes the substance of what I'm saying. I've come across plenty of arguments for advocating what you call neopronouns, I don't agree with them, but I recognise that they're arguments nonetheless, and most of the time come from a desire to make the best of the situation. I'm simply saying that yours isn't an argument, but more akin to a red herring. What your saying falls into the category of a technically true/actually false statement. Putting he/she next to ze/xir and saying, "Well, they're both technically made up", is a false equivalence and belongs more in a discussion about how language is formed than whether this trend of choosing your own word to describe your identity is valid or not. Of course it's true certain words do get 'made-up' and are added to the lexicon all the time, and yes, words fall in and out of favour, but there is no precedent for a fundamental shift such as what these new pronouns would constitute.

Also, I do think this is a perfect place to have this discussion, since it's a topic that's so important to so many comic creators, and is relevant to the kinds of stories we write and the language use. Besides, I don't think we could have it anywhere without rubbing some people the wrong way on both sides of the fence. That's just an inevitability. But I didn't involve myself in this conversation just to lose friends and alienate people. This is a just small part of a larger discussion happening all over the world that I have strong opinions on, as do not doubt many others who would disagree with me.

[mac]

...and now you're arguing a point that isnt related to the topic at all, i see.

Anyway, from reading your past replies on this topic it seems like you either hate respecting people who aren't cisgender or you're too stubborn to actually try to learn how to pronounce pronouns like ze/hir and xe n stuff.

anyway this site has a lot of basic neopronouns (ofc theres more) and you can learn how to pronounce them and use them in a sentence and stuff. hope that helps :))!!!

[michaelson]

Let's keep it civil in here.

I've also redacted a previous post using a racial slur and other words that I'm not comfortable having on the forums.