Quick guide: Marketing

NickRowler 2022-08-22 00:01:38 UTC #16

Don't know why you are ranting about American politics, I'm not a Republican or a Democrat or anything. Not sure why telling people who like diversity in media or lesbian vampire shows that they are "too woke" has anything to do with that stuff.

If I wrote a story about a trans person to be read by other transpeople and allies, would that make me woke?

DiegoPalacios 2022-08-22 00:26:45 UTC #17

Here you are hitting an interesting point......audience.

Different stories have different targets in mind, what appeals to a certain group may alienate others. And while some audiences have common interests with other niches, that's not always the case.

Seeking an audience with whom your story can resonate is often a solid strategy that can lead to a profitable and loyal following when it's done in a genuine manner. (and if the niche is big enough to pay the bills)

Here the key word is being genuine, not like Disney's clumsy half assed attempts of the thousands "first gay X"

IndigoShirtProd 2022-08-22 00:29:28 UTC #18

I wanted to ask this earlier after reading through this thread, but decided against it thinking it wasn't a fair question. I have to ask, in this general advice thread about marking, why did you specifically bring up using inclusivity and diversity as a way to market. It just seems like an, to be fair, not entirely unrelated by marginally removed, opinion tacked on to "uncontroversial" advice. Why not just talk about how to market media in one thread and then discuss your issues with diversity marketing in a different thread? It just kind of distracts from what the supposed point of the thread was. I wanted to read some advice about marketing, not have to get into the geopolitical aspects of why I've mentioned the race of a character when I talk about on social media, but that's how I felt walking into this thread.

RobertBMarks 2022-08-22 00:29:47 UTC #19

Well, you wanted to know why the word changed into something with negative connotations - that's the road I saw, and it went through American politics and the culture wars they caused. I physically can't chart that path without talking about them. My view was from the outside looking in - somebody from the United States might have a different view.

Damned if I know without actually reading the story.

If it was a story in which the protagonist is nothing more than a caricature whose main point of characterization is their sexuality, and every single other character is a caricature whose characterization is based solely on their skin colour or sexuality, with next to no exploration of their lives or the complexities of the issues they face, then I would say that falls under the negative connotation of "woke" that right now exists (and, I imagine the people you were writing it for wouldn't enjoy it much either - something I've noticed about the works that meet that negative connotation is that the only people they please are the far left activists).

And if it's not that, I don't see how it could meet the definition of the negative connotation of "woke".

But that's just me and what I've been able to ferret out about it. I've seen a number of characters and stories that I wouldn't define as "negative connotation of woke" in a hundred years condemned for being just that.

NickRowler 2022-08-22 00:37:19 UTC #20

Why would you (someone who is not trans) need to be the one who decides if my story that I wrote as a transperson about a transperson for transpeople is OK by your standards to be classified not by a negative term?

Same goes for media made by black people or anyone outside your identity. It's such a fucked up way to look at media. That is why all this woke labeling makes no sense to me.

sable40k 2022-08-22 00:43:19 UTC #21

Not sure I have much to add in terms of marketing -- I agree with the general idea of making sure the story and its hooks have the spotlight. I'm just impressed that you're tackling an issue that inspires a LOT of instant polarization, but with a fairly even keel.

IIRC you do a bunch of reviews on the Discord too, right? Wish you luck rebuilding your audience

RobertBMarks 2022-08-22 00:45:11 UTC #22

Well, you probably won't like the answer, but because at this point they're linked, for better or worse.

Here's how this should work (and how, 10 years ago, it would have worked) - I'd have talked about identifying your selling points, how to priortize and order them, and left it at that. No discussion of how to avoid PR seppuku, no discussion of diversity marketing one way or the other. And then, I'd end by saying that if you want to see good examples in action, look at Disney, and Marvel, and CBS, and the BBC, and so on..

You might be starting to see the problem here. Every single exemplar that comes to mind to give seems to be in a race to find the fastest way to alienate their own fanbases. There's a massive negative example that stands as the elephant in the room, and it has to get addressed somehow. I honestly don't like having to do it, but I'm also REALLY tired of watching it play out, and if just one person reads this, goes on to get big, and DOESN'T make these mistakes, I'll call it a win.

RobertBMarks 2022-08-22 00:49:52 UTC #23

Because YOU literally asked ME "If I wrote a story about a trans person to be read by other transpeople and allies, would that make me woke?"

If you don't think that I am qualified to give you an answer, then don't ask me the question. I'll answer any question as best I can, and I can't promise I'll be right every time, but I'll always try my best - particularly in a matter as complex and controversial as this - but asking somebody a question like that and then complaining that they're not qualified to give you an answer is a pretty dick move.

And I would point out just how much uncertainty was baked into my answer...as well as the fact that I only ventured to talk about the story, and not the person writing it.

DiegoPalacios 2022-08-22 00:49:58 UTC #24

I think the main reason people reacted as they did during this topic, is because many folks here make content that genuinely appeals to said audiences these big companies clumsily tried to aim to.

I guess you probably didn't want to put them in the same sack as Disney, Marvel, etc........but without a clarification, a misunderstanding was kinda bound to happen.

IndigoShirtProd 2022-08-22 00:57:57 UTC #25

Yeah, I realize they are. You said diversity marketing, I got that much.

You don't have to, you owe no one the grace of advice on the topic. It seems like you just wanted to. I was just thinking it seems like the type of discussion that would thrive more if it wasn't attached to general marketing advice. There's plenty that could be said about the topic all on it's own.

I don't think there's much to misunderstand here, I just found it off putting when I wanted to read about general marketing and advice about it, and instead faced a discussion about marketing based on "superficial" traits of characters. Though, the fault is on my part; I assumed the discussion would go into the technical aspects of marketing not the philosophical or political.

NickRowler 2022-08-22 01:04:33 UTC #26

Well, I am not a far left activist (whatever that means) but I have also had people call me a leftie (probably because I am LGBT and I like diversity). Maybe by what you told me so far, I need to embrace the wokeness and make it my whole identity. Maybe it will fill the void of my lack of political alignment.

DiegoPalacios 2022-08-22 01:27:13 UTC #27

Well...personally i prefer more technical advice too.........if i had a summary of OP's points:

-Find your selling points: Focus on the main selling of your story. (premise, genre and what sets it apart from other stories of said genre) then as it's name says, complement it with your secondary selling points. (characters, world building, and what makes these things special)

-make a blurb with your selling points mentioning first the key selling points and then the secondary ones......

-don't be toxic, don't guilt trip your audience and don't get in unneccesary online conflicts.

-diversity by itself is not a selling point. It can help, but would be more like a tertiary selling point. (I would say this can be secondary depending of the genre and the topics it handles.)

-Alienating your main audience to pander to a new one is a poor choice. Specially if done in a mediocre way......

IndigoShirtProd 2022-08-22 01:37:16 UTC #28

Well it's a quick guide, so I didn't expect him to go into too much detail (or any more detail than he already has). I just assumed the discussion would branch out into the nitty gritty details of marketing and not what did happen. But that was my wrong assumption.

And I just want to mention, not that anyone asked, it's not as though I don't think it can or should not be discussed, just that it would be more productive isolated in it's own topic in my opinion.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-22 01:41:07 UTC #29

Okay, so to summarize the opinion of literally everyone here: diversity good, shallow tokenism bad

/thread

Jenny-Toons 2022-08-22 01:43:03 UTC #30

Hi ya'll --

Kinda noticed the thread was escalating just a bit, so I wanted to jump in and remind peeps to keep chill and vibe. If need be, there's never a wrong time to get up and come back to the convos at a later time or reread replies before sending.

Don't wanna close the thread since marketing (especially in terms of demographics) is a good convo to have, but just wanted to send out that reminder.

Have a night evening everyone!

Jenny

rajillustration 2022-08-22 01:50:18 UTC #31

@NickRowler As an American in California, the word "woke" is a little different. Honestly the word is slightly different wherever you may be, but out here it's a word that means you are trying to cover up for your ignorance basically. It's not really a compliment to be called woke.

And, when used in the context of a large company, where it's most often used, it means that a company is trying to save face for all of the neglect they have done to their minority workers over the years by having an outward charity or maybe they'll spotlight minority workers for a bit (or maybe for an entire month in June)--while ignoring the fact that they still hire significantly less and pay significantly less to those workers and are not actually improving their lives where it matters.

Dunno if that explanation helps, it is a somewhat contextual term where it really depends on what you're talking about.

NickRowler 2022-08-22 01:58:12 UTC #32

Where I live, there has been issues with teachers being harassed and books are being banned from school for being "too woke". Teachers don't want to work in the schools anymore because they don't want to deal with the death threats. I feel like if my work was published in print form, it would probably also be on the banned list for being "too woke". I think in some ways I want to just accept it and say "Yeah I'm woke, go cry about it". I don't think there is anything I could do to appease these people because me just existing is "too political" for some people even if I am not a political person.

RobertBMarks 2022-08-22 02:18:59 UTC #33

Or, you could just write good stories that speak to you with well-developed characters, and ignore the idiots who would call you "woke" for exploring the subjects that are dear to you. Just sayin'.

Take the advice of an mental abuse survivor: don't ever let anybody else define you but YOU.

TheLemmaLlama 2022-08-22 02:24:05 UTC #34

Right, I think I can understand where you're coming from a bit better with that context. Things are a lot worse where you live than what I'm familiar with, so your reactions to some people on these forums sometimes feel overblown to me to the point that I'm a bit scared of you sometimes. But reading your actual comics, you don't seem like a very political person at all.

RobertBMarks 2022-08-22 02:26:09 UTC #35

Quick correction: for a blurb, it should often be the other way around. For everything else, key selling point first.