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Mar 2
  • True
  • False

36voters

...The outcome of this poll is probably going to be easy to predict. ^^; But despite that, I think there's a discussion to be had about why that is. I've spoken about this issue plenty of times under different topics, but this is the first time I've framed it as a pure True or False, so maybe that'll invite more responses.

So: my vote is an automatic True, because I believe most authors don't actually know how to write, period. ⚆_⚆; Even when you get into professional settings, your odds are about 50/50. It's just how it is, I guess.

But when it comes to writing romance in particular...because it's such an easy draw for any given story (alloromanticism gonna alloromanticize) it's kinda never really been something an author needs to 'know how' to write. For a very long time you could just say that characters fell in love and got married as the cherry on top of a completely unrelated story, and that was totally normal. :thumbsup: The demand for an engaging 'relationship' to preface and build up a romance is a relatively recent phenomenon-- I'm not saying that they weren't written in centuries past, I'm just saying they weren't particularly needed or expected.

Fast forward to now, where romance is still an easy draw that you don't have to 'know how' to write, but readers still expect some amount of effort from you in establishing it...even if it's just effortful fluff, you have to do something. Which leads to all the confusion, mixed messages, time-wasting, and toxicity that you get in your average amateur romance, and all the dull and painfully predictable "awkward comedy" that you get in your average mainstream romance.

Writers seem to flounder and fall back on tired tropes just to fill time...or for the more-advanced, to provide at least a semblance of engaging character conflict and stakes. This is why will-they-won't-they is so common, in my opinion: the highest stake you can possibly introduce to a romance is whether or not it will survive...or even exist. Doesn't matter if this stake even makes sense for the characters as they are written; just make them say they're 'not sure' or 'don't know' about entering a relationship with someone they're clearly attracted to and spend absurd amounts of time with, and you can string readers along for years. Bonus points if it's never your intention to confirm the relationship or develop it beyond that single stake...as is the case with queerbaiting. T_T

Anyway, probably the worst 'tired trope thrown in to make a romance feel interesting', in my opinion, is Enemies to Lovers. Not only is it annoying, cheap, and lazy, it has completely rotted people's brains, even the brains of writers who don't care about romance. 9 times out of 10, if a non-romantic story finally introduces a romance, it will be framed as Enemies to Lovers...and only because the formerly-common Sexy Lamp and Damsel in Distress framings are now considered sexist and outdated.

Although I'd argue that Enemies to Lovers is just as sexist if not more, considering its origins...If you think this trope is toxic now, you should take a look back at how it was used in the 1940's and 50's (with an incredibly uncomfortable resurgence in the 70's...). I've seen so much of it basically used to imply that you need to "tame" a woman and figuratively/literally beat her into submission to make her fall in love with you, because a fun, wild, quirky girl is fine to date but the romance won't last unless she learns to see you as her superior.
And on the (almost worse...?) flipside, you need to "tame" a man and endure any of his violence and aggression, because it's actually a beneficial weapon you can wield against others, if you learn to manipulate him into wanting to defend you...and if you're not "woman enough" to figure that out, well, there's this romantic quasi-martyrdom to be found in suffering through marriage and quietly bearing all the pain and being so strong and mature for everyone else's sake and BLEGH ICK BLEGH BLECH

...The sad part is that a lot of ^that thinking still survives through this trope in particular: I believe that's it's main form of delivery to modern audiences. I think of it every time I hear about men using humiliation tactics while dating, and women promoting toxic masculinity, claiming that men who are kind and emotionally open are "unattractive" and weak, or must be hiding something.
Even when you're watching a kids' cartoon and the guy MC wants to get the girl MC, and his wingman tells him to "act cool and like you don't care about her"...we know it's bad advice. We know the lesson of the day will be to "just be yourself". But this idea that a romance needs to start as an antagonistic dynamic is still present, still weirdly common even in irony.

...This got pretty rambly. ^^; But my point is that it's such an easy source of conflict, even outside of its heteronormative roots, that writers lean on it way too much. To the point where the simple act of making characters not like each other somehow counts as setting up a romance...and to be clear, I don't care when fandom does this; shippers can think whatever they want. But when an actual writer is doing this, acting as they can forge a deep, meaningful relationship out of pointless bickering and constant put-downs with the occasional "well...actually they're kind of cool" moment in between...it's honestly pathetic.

Like I said, it just feels like brainrot...regurgitating the same dynamic over and over, sometimes with multiple couples in the same cast...writing as if the idea of people actually liking each other before feeling romantic attraction is "too normal" or childish, and in some cases, not needed after romantic attraction either.
^This is even more painful, when it happens: the couple is actually confirmed and together-- a rarity! -- but if they started caring about each other that would be "cringe", so they need to go on bullying each other and constantly trading insults in every line of dialogue...forever. Even though, now that they're mutually in love, we know for certain that these insults are meaningless, so it's literally just edgy window dressing. The dynamic becomes even more worthless than when it started.

TL;DR: yeah, 'will-they-won't-they' is boring, and Enemies-to-Lovers has the potential to be both boring AND toxic/offensive. But I think the reason why they're used poorly (even though they don't have to be) and the reason why many authors don't know how to write romance boils down to the same thing: fear of sincerity.

Being happy with someone and saying "I love you" without having to tack on "...dumbass" is considered wholesome-cutesy schlock. The idea that you can say those kinds of things without being cutesy-- by being serious and sincere-- is just barely entertained. It is simply a dramatic device to pull out during the climax, to make the audience cry during a big moment, to make sure they know the characters are together and in love so you never have to do anything but hint at it ever again.

And this makes a lot of romances feel hollow and disjointed, because they lack moments of honesty and emotional security that make the relationship feel strong and 'safe' for the participants. You can try to use tropes to fill in the gaps-- self-sacrifice is a common one-- but those don't stand up without adequate support. A relationship is a team effort, where both partners need to give and take: if all you show is 99% mutual taking with maybe 1% giving by whichever one of the characters is brave enough to look vulnerable for half a second...whatever you end up with is not gonna feel real, and it's not going to be memorable to anyone but shippers. And relying on fandom hysteria to carry a half-written story (a discussion for another day...) is just unprofessional and short-sighted. In 5 years your shippers will have moved on to something else, and then no one will remember why they ever cared about your story.

I don't think it's a case of writers (at least the majority) not knowing how to write romance, rather that the romance genre is awash with so many books and is so popular, that it's easier and more profitable to write some half decent slop than to try and craft a more genuine story.

From what I know about the romance audience, they don't stick to a book. They burn through them at an immense pace. It's kinda like a fast food situation imo.

In a weird twisted way, considering how popular the genre is, you could argue that the majority of authors know exactly how to write for their audience.

Sure, arguing about the quality of the relationships depicted in these books is definitely valid, but I believe that at the end of the day the audience knows it's not "right" but doesn't care, because it's just a fantasy.

So no, I don't think that authors don't know how to write romance. I think the romance genre is jist catered to a different kind of audience than people like you or me, and that's fine.

I think you should have stopped at “most writers don’t actually know how to write.” Sturgeon's law dictates that 90% of art is crap, and romance is no exception. I think other genres suffer from the same reliance on generic, often problematic tropes but people don’t notice as much because as a society, we have a tendency to look down on media targeted for girls. The trope of the bullied kid who suddenly becomes powerful and teaches a lesson to all his bullies is just as toxic as the abusive male lead but we don’t use it as a way to dismiss the entire action genre.

People cringe at terrible romance subplot because it is often completely disjointed from the plot. In my favorite shoujo manga, Berserk, the romance plot is weaved inside the narrative. Major events feed in the romance section that ultimately feed out to the rest of the plot. You cannot remove the romance plot without emputating the rest of the story.

Do you have a TL;DR of the TL;DR?

In my opinion: false
I simply refuse to limit people's creativity. I will not look at writers and dismiss their attempts by saying they can't write romance because they can't write--- more so when they post their content here free for folks to read. That is rude and not helpful, and frankly, wrong.

I agree a lot of writers fear being sincere, and that is an issue for me since I prefer that in media, but I'm not about to talk down to them. Maybe they like the ironic humour/snark. Maybe they enjoy those "tired boring tropes"-- or toxic relationship dynamics. Ain't my place to say the writer (or reader) is wrong for that or to declare they cannot write their chosen genre since it isn't to my tastes. I'm not gonna pretend I'm better. Lord knows I have my guilty pleasures; even I don't particularly like the common romance stuff out there.

I have a lot of issues with most romance fiction, which is one reason I'm writing one! This is excluding the smut that gets called romance, I think of smut and romance as separate genres.

Apart from the general inability of writers to write well, there are some issues I have with the romance genre in general. The most common one is that the men are usually written poorly - men who are extremely emotionally intelligent, hyper devoted to the point of criminality, super buff despite never exercising and spending all their time posing in a library with books - it's just as bad as guy-with-boobs action chicks who are super sexy but don't realize it in boys media.

Another less egregious one is when authors write characters that are too similar (they're effectively the same person, but twice) or too different (no compatibility). The first is usually just an inexperienced writer issue, making most of their characters have the same personality - theirs, usually - but with different circumstances. The second I find more annoying where there is no reason outside of the current convoluted scenario that these two characters would ever interact with each other, and you can tell that the moment the camera stops rolling, they'd break up because they have no common interests or shared values.

On the other hand, I'll have to disagree about the fun of will they/won't they. I'm not a huge fan of love triangles and forced soap opera drama constantly pulling a relationship apart. However, my favorite part of a fictional relationship is the part where two people have grown so close together that everyone else assumes they're dating but they themselves haven't realized it - and my second favorite is the part of the relationship where they are officially together but they're still learning to live with each other as people. Both of those can get plenty of play in the will they/won't they setup if done well.

One genre of romance I and my wife both enjoy is Swashbuckler. It's pretty neglected these days, as few people realize that there's more to a swashbuckler genre story than just an action movie with pirates. In a swashbuckler genre story you usually have the guy and the girl on the opposite sides of a conflict, but as they get to know each other through the various adventurous actions they can put their initial prejudices aside and love each other for who they really are. It's a sort of enemies to lovers, but I don't think that's what you meant.

I do enjoy some of those 1930's-50's era romances - "It happened one night," anyone? They may not jive to the modern puritanical standards, but at least in the good ones the men are masculine and the woman are feminine, they're fairly normal people and the relationships tend to be more believable and less tropey.

I get that a lot of people are tired of the 'tacked on' romance in other genres, though these days I'm more sick of the sterile coworkers-only relationships in non-romance genre films that have become common in the past decade.

I'd just listen to true to life romance stories on the radio (barangay love stories... but unfortunately it's Tagalog only)

They're based on real stories except names, places, any identifying information changed.

I'm genuinely shocked that False is beating True...this is really interesting. ^^; 2 years ago I would not have gotten this response on this forum; I can tell you that...it's surprisingly heartwarming seeing people finally stepping up to defend the romance genre, even if I don't necessarily agree with their points. 20-year-old me would be proud~

I don't know how good this analogy is for your point, tbh. ^^; Like, I agree that it's apt, but I have a different takeaway from that observation.

Generally, fast food is designed to fill you up and taste good...usually without providing sufficient quantities of the nutrients that your body actually needs. It's only fulfilling part of the purpose of food-- there's an essential aspect that's missing.
And even if people don't care and want to eat their McNuggets anyway...I feel a responsibility to point out what's missing regardless. People should know that a cardboard box of fried slaughterhouse scraps is not the only way to enjoy eating chicken, or to prepare it for others to enjoy. Sure, a lot of them might not care...but some might. Some might decide to care in some instances and not care in others...but they won't even get that choice if no one ever points out a problem.

To exit the analogy: Popular does not equal quality, and it certainly doesn't render the idea of quality irrelevant. The argument that "well, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad because the audience doesn't care, so why should the creators?" is something I fundamentally cannot agree with, as a media critic. I can understand the thought process, but my job is to ignore it and think critically about the quality of the work anyway. Because it still matters. Someone somewhere is gonna see it eventually.

One day there will be someone in that 'different kind of audience' who suddenly feels dissatisfied with a romance book they thought they would love, and wonders why --> that is what critics are for.
One day there will be someone who usually writes tons of cheap, easy romance successfully and has a fun time doing it, but suddenly decides they want to write a romance with a little more depth that can reach a different audience --> that is also what critics are for. Someone has to be able to tell them something other than "the audience doesn't care, so why bother"; to allow them to diversify their skillset.

Basically, I don't think this response is much of a counter-argument. ^^; It kinda glosses over the fact that well-written romances exist and also have an audience that cares about how they're written...just because a lot of romance fans like slop doesn't mean that's all the genre needs to be.

Hot take, but I do. ^^; I've made dozens of posts complaining about boring/offensive shonen tropes; and I actively avoid the genre because of how lazily it's usually written on top of that. I don't look down on people who enjoy it; but I know I would ABSOLUTELY NOT enjoy it so I stay out of it. Most of what I know about it is what I get secondhand from similar tropes in RPGs...which is painful enough for me, thanks...

...I understand that a lot of complaints about romance and romance writing are just thinly veiled misogyny, so I can't blame you for drawing this comparison, but I wanted to make it clear that that's not what's going on here. I don't dislike romance, and I don't dislike genres aimed at girls and women. I just dislike bad writing.

No :thumbsup:

...I feel like we may just have different perspectives on media as a whole, or at least a different way of putting things. Nevertheless, I feel a sort of disclaimer is in order here:

I'll admit that I'm naturally a harsh critic; my feelings about media that disappoints me are very acute, and most of the time they come out that way. Personally, as long as I'm not trying to attack, disparage, and humiliate an actual person, I don't think there's anything wrong with that-- you can disagree, but that is the reason I write the way I do.

Because at the end of the day, these things are just my opinions and that's how I view them. If I say something is "pathetic" it's because that's how I feel about the content of the writing, not because I think the writer is a pathetic human being.
Similarly, when I say that "most writers can't write" I don't mean that most writers should be discouraged from writing, or should somehow not be allowed to write. I just mean that most writers don't write well. =/

In my eyes, that's a neutral statement...particularly because writing doesn't actually have to be good to be enjoyable. I've enjoyed and loved many things that weren't written well, or just weren't written well enough for what they were trying to accomplish. Sure, maybe I'd like them more if they were better...but I will unabashedly admit that they aren't written well while still rating them highly or recommending them to others, based solely on how much fun I had. So while you saw that as a grave insult and a condemnation...I just saw it as a simple truth.

I know expressing negative opinions and emotions without dissolving into toxicity is difficult and rare on the internet...but some of us still do it, just FYI. What I wrote wasn't meant to hurt anyone, "talk down to them", or make them want to quit writing. Not once in that whole rant did I say that poorly-written romances should not exist, or that people who write them and read them should not exist. I was just dissatisfied with a thing and explained why.

I picked false mostly because what people find romantic is subjective. And I feel authors are just writing what they personally are attracted to. Yes this can run into toxic relationship and weird fetishes. I don't think this means they don't know romance, it's just they have a different view on it. You might not agree with it but I think a lot of romance stories are superficial and sometimes boarder on pure fantasy. That is why people like it, I guess.

Sorry I can't comment on the rest of your writing. My bad vision makes it hard to read walls of text.

I would say the type of romance someone prefers to read also plays a role here. It is not as simple as not knowing to write one, it maybe the creator's preference of romance and even other genre.
It's my personal experience: [I suck at writing :joy:] but the type of characters I prefer in novels and comics have always reflected in my story . I would say reading and preference plays as much significant role as the creators capability .

100% true. Part of the reason why I stopped liking online romance novels is because they all quickly felt inorganic. Enemies to lovers always turns into "two people have a bad first impression of each other when they meet and are competing for something". Not really a true "enemy". Every female lead's ex is always abusive. The male lead's ex is always psychotic trying to get him back. The girl is always responsible for getting her family out of financial straights and has to sell herself. The rich love interests are always stalkers forcing themselves into every aspect of the female lead's life. The male lead could torture the female lead and hold her prisoner, but all has to be forgiven when the "feels" start. The female leads are always sassy and danger-prone. The male leads are always giants and brutish. You get the point. The stories are all the same after a while.

In my opinion, "romance" should complement the main storyline. For example, there are a million and one versions of Cinderella out there. Don't give me a story about a girl abused by her family who gets rescued by a rich guy. Tell me a story about two girls trying to improve their lives, one by marrying the "prince" and the other by starting a business. Or be silly and tell me a story where Cinderella is living in a romcom and Prince Charming is living in a spy thriller.

The good romances that I've liked were always more about two people falling in love while living their life. The plot was always character driven, rather than plot driven. The characters were written to be people, rather than stereotypes.

It seems a lot of romance tropiness problems stem from the authors not having a lot of experience with good relationships to draw from and are instead writing what they imagine a good one to be. It's very hard to write an emotional journey you yourself have not been on!

Allow me to paraphrase something I once read about being a good critic, though I can’t recall where:
"The point of a critique is not to try and shape things into something that suits your liking, it is to help the creator to reach their potential with what they want to make."

If you want to believe calling something someone wrote "pathetic" because that's what you feel about the work and looking at a whole genre with a hand wave and saying "most writers can't write" because you "just saw it as a simple truth" is neutral and not discouraging or talking down to folks who like it then I don't know what to tell you. Not executing something flawlessly, heck, not executing something particularly well is vastly different from “not being able to write” in my opinion. If they can tell a story and write it out, they can write— just as they can improve. Your arbitrary scale of "good or bad" doesn't factor into it, more so given you're willing to dismiss professionals almost as flippantly as amateurs. The work and effort they poured into their projects is not pathetic. I want to be a helpful voice instead of a negative— oh, sorry, "neutral" one. That is not to say I do not critic things myself. I can do so quite harshly, if it is asked of me (poor girl from writer's group getting 52 suggestions/comments on 2 pages worth of writing could probably attest to that, same goes for the guy who got back a report longer than his piece) but never once had I ever had to utter "pathetic" or anything of the like-- nor would something like that ever cross my mind-- in my critics regardless if the genre/tropes/style/humour/whatever were to my interests or not. Just as my writing (gothic horror, about abuse and fawning as a reaction to such.) doesn't tickle many of my writing group's/friend circle's fancies, yet they somehow avoid rude language and disparaging remarks about my plot, tropes, and ideas. Critiques are about suggestions on how one can improve what they want to write, probing questions about the specific characters/narrative, compliments & encouragements, and most importantly trying to help people improve in the way they want to; not telling them their ideas are boring or bad and that they cannot write. We're just going to have to disagree where critique ends and insult/unhelpful comments begins, I suppose.

All this really takes me back to when those "cringe deviantart" pages were popular years ago. I remember it scared plenty of folks away from posting and/or drawing in general, even if those posts were not directed at them personally. Since yes, being told you're bad at something/don't have taste/have boring ideas/are pathetic/can't draw, even tangentially, might be pretty discouraging. Dissatisfaction or not, tact is something I'd recommend more. More so when posting on a forum mostly made up of amateurs, younger people, beginners, and people mostly writing for free for their own enjoyment. It isn't all going to be for you--- in fact, most will not be. That doesn't make it bad or mean they cannot write.

Though I believe I've gotten quite lost in the sauce about shortcomings in critiques instead of the topic at hand. To wrap up: Writing is an art, and art is very subjective, but dismissing whole sections of it is reductive and hardly seeing past one's own interests. Just as one might not see value or skill in modern art, it doesn't mean the artist "can't make art". Same goes for someone who might look at simple anime drawings from a teenager and not see value or skill in it, that doesn’t mean they “can’t make art”. I believe it is similar for writing. That is something we are also just going to have to agree to disagree on, I suppose.

Let me leave with a quote from my last professional editor, one they said in the first email I got from them, since I think it's sage advice to keep in mind for all creatives when dealing with feedback— particularly feedback they believe might ruin their vision:
"All of these, and any future notes you ever get from an editor, are almost always just suggestions and you can choose to implement them or not. In the end, it's your story and you have final say."

It´s hard for me to judge if most authors know how to write romance or if they don´t have a clue
or are bad writers. I´m a bad writer myself. I guess most writers are really bad and there are
a few who are really good at it

Yeah, it definitely looks that way...

I will say that when I'm giving feedback to specific people, I do try to follow the quote you laid out in your first paragraph...hell, there's a non-zero chance you may have heard it from me; because I've said that very same thing on this forum. ^^; Awkward to think about...

Also, bite doesn't always equal complete dismissal-- I'm just as harsh when I do design critiques, despite knowing that design is highly variable and always taking multiple solution routes into account when I try to give corrections. I really think this whole disagreement really boils down to tact alone; I agree with 90% of what you said.

However, tact is also highly variable, maybe more so than you realize. Believe it or not, every single time I've had someone actually get angry at me for a criticism I gave, it's been an instance when I tried to be as polite as possible. ^^; No harsh words, no attitude, just "this could work better with X, Y, and Z". It does sometimes feel like you can't win as a critic, even when people explicitly come to you for advice...some people don't care if you go full Gordon Ramsay; some people only want compliment sandwiches decorated with heart and smiley-face emojis, and will accept nothing less. I just try to find a balance, like everyone else...and I always say that if you don't like my criticism, that's perfectly fine; there's always someone out there who will meet your needs better.

That's honestly something worth its own topic; something I saw being discussed in the thread where I found the title quote...I don't have time to go into it right now, but let's just say I agree AND disagree. ^^;

Personally i agree, but i think it's mostly because some authors feel obligated to spark some romance in a story that doesn't need it to fill gaps or they go too far on pandering shippers and it ruins the pacing of what the story is actually about.