The importance of knowing your subject

[candiedcotton]

I've noticed a um... recent uptick in some areas where people are writing about gay characters and while they probably don't intend for it, the story and characters end up being extremely offensive.

I'm not one to point fingers. And I'm pretty open to all sorts of interpretations, as I think a lot of people know. Don't care if they're super sexual or not, don't care if they're femme or crazy masculine, don't care about a lot of things.

However. For the love of cheese, please at least try to come at it with some sense of awareness and education. Gay people are just as diverse as any other group. Being gay is not the entire makeup of any character.

I don't get offended easily, but when I see stories where the whole character's identity is literally just being gay, and the cringe tropes of "he's gay so if you're male he's going to hit on you" or "he's gay so let's call him girly 30 times in the same chapter"...

I get a little ticked.

Be aware of your content.

That is all.

(passes the soapbox elsewhere)

[JoshRaed]

I feel like if a story has a major gay character crush on the straight male protagonist, the story will be bad gay representation. I’ve only ever seen examples that prove my point.

Like bojack horseman, where the one important gay character for multiple seasons is herb, who exists to have his life ruined, get cancer (specifically ass cancer for the sake of a gay joke about it), and die. Someone eats his ashes on accident, which was funny but only highlight how his character is treated by the plot.

[BoomerZ]

Been saying this for years. If your character's only trait is that they are gay, or your story's only hook is the couple is gay, it's boring. Just think of it in reverse. A story where the character's defining trait is straight. Most BL/GL comics are very generic in my opinion and really rest on tropes and stereotypes. And don't get me started on the dominant people in most relationships are straight up predators we would never put up with if it was a man pursuing a girl. I think the stories just need to mature and break out of the mode of "this is what a gay comics has to be like."

[JoshRaed]

I kind of hate that the default template for conflict in a gay relationship in mainstream fiction is struggle related to sexuality.

Like the adult romcoms are about it, the teen romances are about it, the oscar bait misery films are about it, is there nothing else these people can think to write a gay couple doing? Do these stories only exist to be representation? Is the fact that they’re gay at all purely for plot convenience to create drama?

Like I way prefer Castle swimmer to heartstopper but of course heart stopper is the one about “what if gay” so of course it got to be a a TV show first.

I also hate the gay best friend trope because the character is never really defined beyond the stereotypical idea of a gay person. For example, Janice Ian from mean girls is already the best friend and has experiences with homophobia, but rather than being the gay best friend she has a gay best friend herself, because she’s too much of a real character to be the gay friend.

The gay best friend isn’t even a sidekick, they’re like a sidekick’s sidekick, defined by a vague idea of how gay people act and by hanging around a more important character all the time.

[abigaillmartin]

Yeah I really really tried to make my characters Eric and Winston, who are gay, have many character difference traits and stories of just being human. I don’t even explicitly state that they are gay no one bats an eye in the story and no one calls them anything really. Except that they are egg traffickers so they call them whatever any criminal would be called. Also the focus is not their romance in my story but it is shown. My subject is a COMEDY CRIME story and that is my focus.

I also just try to avoid stereotypes in general. I try to make my characters PEOPLE with feelings, hardships, struggles, strengths, weaknesses fears dreams. We should start making characters as people. I’ve seen nowadays movies with an agenda of a certain type of character. A certain race, gender etc is just put on there on display and doesn’t give the characters anything else. They’re BORING! I’m done with this! Just write human beings HUMAN BEINGS for God’s sake!

sighs

[NickRowler]

I agree, I got really frustrated when teens (usually girls) were using the term “gay panic” to be uwu and it even appeared in the TV show version of Heartstopper. I don’t think these people are aware of the homophobic history of this term.

I also dislike that some female writers who write gay stories and say “This isn’t for gay male readers.” If you are too embarrassed to show your gay story to a gay person, maybe don’t write it.

[SoftWonderBun]

I think the problem with ALOT of BL genre specific gay media is that they are still being wrapped up in a 'straight' package. Stories are still being made with the male-female stereotype in mind and it's bonkers. I've consumed a lot BL, japan specific, media in my time on the internet(not so much now) and even as a teen I was like 'is this really...good?'. The Seme/Uke stereotype, the down right assault of the 'bottom' character for EVERY sexual interaction, the lack of autonomy of either of the pair to be anything other than gay has always grossed me out. I'm glad we are able to branch out beyond that on both the eastern and western front for indie media but the 'marketable' gay media needs a lot of work.

The other side of the coin, for the indie stuff that's bad/stereotypical/etc, is that I can bet most of the time it was written by a woman/teen girl and only half of the time those people are actually some flavor of queer themselves. They have the badge(maybe) but they are still catering to the hetero mindset. It's fine if you are working your own queer journey out through your work. I imagine most of us to do but damn are you that two-dimensional in real life? It's a lack of life experience and true understanding that makes it so rough to even get through the story.

[abigaillmartin]

You make a fair point. I’m completely comfortable sharing everyone my stories. And if they don’t like the gay relationship in mine they mind their own business and I’ll mind mine.

[JoshRaed]

The way they make “gay” a thing as a gimmick.

“i’m here at the speed of gay”

“wake up and smell the gay”

“What you are feeling is called gay sweetie”

like that shit annoys me so much.

the worst example is:

“Tobias running from the gay thoughts be like”

for context, the character of Tobias was raised in a extremist religious household where he was taught homophobia, but is also implied to have repressed gay thoughts. Like he genuinely believes gay people go to hell. And they make it into a joke. Like to these people, the idea of a character having serious sexuality struggles due to internalized homophobia is a quirky little thing that makes the character cutely blush going “b-but we’re both guys” a bunch.

[abigaillmartin]

That’s what I’m afraid of to be honest. I’m scared of getting it wrong. I’m bi myself but I’m not a gay dude that’s why I’m afraid of getting my characters wrong. I really tried to avoid the stereotypes on all types of gay representation. I just tried to make my characters people at the core.

[SoftWonderBun]

As a bi woman myself I totally feel you. I think what consuming so much 'bad' gay media has taught me is that your sexuality is such a very small part of who you are. Obviously, if you are looking for a partner or coming into your own as a queer person it will take up more space as you work through that time in your life but the idea that that is all you are is so sad. I see that mindset with a lot with young queer people in real life too. I don't know if it's a coming into your own or an over consumption of 'bad' gay media but it's like 'yes cool me too. What else is there to you as a person though?'

This is all coming from a person who ABSOLUTELY watches garbage hallmark romance movies and reads those tacky 'bisexual awakening' romance novels so please know I know I am not one to talk. But I try to do better with my own work or subvert in some way or better yet not even touch on it unless it is a part of a romance plot point in which case it's pertinent to know if the person you are attracted to is attracted to you as well like anyone else would need to know.

[NickRowler]

“i’m here at the speed of gay”

“wake up and smell the gay”

“What you are feeling is called gay sweetie”

If you told me these were quotes from UNHhhh, I would probably believe you.

[abigaillmartin]

Exactly who you find attractive is a PART of you. Humans have many many many parts of themselves. Yes it’s absolutely difficult to write a complicated character and hard to know about a person. It’s very difficult yah know?

People are complicated. There is no red or blue there’s no black and white. People have values you may not agree with or you completely agree but people have motivations for their actions and beliefs.

It’s complicated.

[abigaillmartin]

It’s almost like reading a poorly written fanfiction mushed with cement and then they slapped a gay label on it. I don’t freaking believe this.

The writing of fifty shades is better than this and that’s coming from a person who despises that book. It’s not my thing.

You can’t just use the word gay for emphasis FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!

Sorry.

[JoshRaed]

I feel like i’d like them better if they were drag queen quotes and not fujoshi quotes.

[harlan]

I think there may be a bit of a generational divide on this. I think it's fair to say that on average, those discovering their sexuality and coming out and falling in love in the last decade in places like North American and European democracies had different, broader, and in a not insignificant number of cases less dangerous and more welcoming experiences than those coming out in the late 90s/early 2000s, which in turn were different than those coming out in the late 70s early 80s, a huge swath of whom are dead from AIDS.

For a lot of older people it seems like the gayness struggle was the biggest part of their experience and stores focused only on that resonate with them (not just because of their experience but also because of the very limited amount of media showing such relationships back then); while now, homophobia is not monolithic and younger people's experiences have so much variation that readers want more: they want people and the stories about them to be more than just about their gayness and not clinging to stereotypes which are outdated, or assuming there is only one way to be and "act" gay.

This perspective is not to downplay in any way the struggles LGBT people, especially youth, still have everywhere in coming out. My own daughter, a young teen, confessed to me that she was scared to death of our reaction when she came out. I actually had to work hard to maintain my composure as I gently told her "My dear child, you have two dads, why would you think we would be upset in any way?" 🤣

[abigaillmartin]

Awww that’s soooo sweet and wholesome! With your daughter 🥺️ and she has two dads too. ️ my heart just melted

God bless her and your family ️

[candiedcotton]

I get it to a point, but I think there's a difference between writing a character who is 'the gay guy' and using harmful tropes.

I have zero issue with most tropes in BL, honestly, but what bothers me is when people don't understand the tropes they're using. Like "he's gay so he must like ALL men".

I mean, I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s. I've been hospitalized 2 times in my life from being attacked by bigots. Almost died the second time. Been kicked out of malls and all kinds of shit. I've been through it, and I went to gay parades and I marched in movements. I've been there pretty deeply. But if I had an autobiography, it wouldn't be about me being gay, it'd be about how the world couldn't accept me because I was gay. Because that was all they saw.

[cherrystark]

I think some people just don't know how to write it and are writing based on the characters/tropes they have access to. Like Kurt Hummel from Glee is the quintessential gay drama kid. While he's probably super relatable to some people, if he's your only reference point for a gay main character, the character could easily come off as stereotypical. Some of my favorite queer characters were written to be human first. I don't think a lot of people remember that when they are writing gay characters.

[abigaillmartin]

I have zero issue with most tropes in BL, honestly, but what bothers me is when people don't understand the tropes they're using. Like "he's gay so he must like ALL men".

Exactly! The thing is me as a bisexual that doesn’t mean I’m romantically/sexually attracted to EVERY guy or girl I meet! Same for a gay person! You can have healthy friendships despite which gender you are attracted to. For my story in Cracking Eggs, I’m planning to have my character Eric to team up with Wellington who is married to a lovely lady with children and Eric does develop a bit of a crush on him but they also become enemies to close allies and eventually friends. At this point in the story as well Eric is engaged to Winston.

Winston is also gay but that doesn’t mean he’s going to hit on his brother Jack or his little nephew. People just over sexualize the word gay which is disgusting on so many levels. Trying to weaponize the word as I see.