Mar 2023
52 / 52
Mar 2023
Mar 2023
TAMAnnoyingThe Cow
Mar '23
candiedcotton

I just feel like theres always going to be some kind of overlap of "person who is just trying to make the most intresting gay drama possible" and "very harmful gay tropes" I think its fine to go to the authors and try to educate them as... again they could just be 16 year olds having fun or 30 year olds who have no internet comunity experience. But you really shouldnt try to mind read which ones are doing it for Tlols and who is just agressivly uneducated- and prob shouldnt be too suprised if they HAVE fans and their fans get upset youre trying to "educate" them when the fans feel like "theres nothing toxic" or sometimes just as commonly "yea its toxic, thats the point"

candiedcotton
Mar '23

I get what you're saying, but I'd argue there's a difference between a toxic relationship (think something like Twilight or 50 Shades, or even Beauty and the Beast) and something where you are using bigotry (all female characters in a show are damsels in distress, or the only gay character present is constantly trying to sleep with every man he comes across).

TAMAnnoyingThe Cow
Mar '23

It all depends on context for me. If the gay character is just ment to be the sluty character cause that's the kind of character they wanted to write about and he's consistent and has a character outside of being sluty then I think it can be fine if it's written well.

But I assume you're referring to when it becomes sussy baka and every gay character this particular writer writes about is always the slut- always sleeping around- always only exclusively on screen to tell a gay joke or be slutty- and literally has no personality outside of those jokes and those scenes.

But I guess I also just consider this "bad writing" more then I consider it toxic :thinking: tho there's no reason that can't over lap

NickRowler
Mar '23

When I think of toxic tropes, I think more along the lines of those weird BL/Yaoi tropes. Like treating the sub like a little girl or someone constantly going "no homo" whenever they kiss or things get sexual. Or BL fans attacking bisexuals (fictional or real) if they end up dating a girl because it ruins their mlm ship. :rolling_eyes:

candiedcotton
Mar '23

Some dudes are into that kinda thing too, though. There's a whole kink around it. lol.

I mean I get where people are coming from, I just genuinely don't think those tropes matter much. So what if they wanna make the designated bottom basically a girl? Eh, let 'em. Let 'em be happy. It's just different when it's bigotry. Like attacking bisexuals for sure is a problem, or hating on female characters purely because they're female. That's just not cool.

NickRowler
Mar '23
1

I am not talking about feminine men or bottoms who like to crossdressing. I am talking about when the dom is an adult man and the sub looks like a little girl. Ex, those weird Black Butler ships.

candiedcotton
Mar '23

That isn't a BL trope so much as a trope in general. But it's definitely gross.

TheLemmaLlama
Mar '23
NickRowler

I strongly disagree with telling people to not write stuff if they know it's cringe or harmful and are completely upfront about that so people who don't want to read it can avoid it.

There's a difference between being genuinely ignorant and perpetuating harmful tropes because you actually think that's how things work, and deliberately writing that stuff because it's a guilty pleasure and you're trying to warn people about it like a responsible person. I don't think anyone has the right to police what other people write about in their own space.

There's only really a problem when people think/act like that's normal, and spread it into general culture where anyone can see it and be influenced by it without knowing any better. I agree that it's important to know your subject if your work is intended for the wider world.

Katzalcoatl
Mar '23

Completely get it. I also don't like when an author uses an identity just for the sake of having said identity. Plus false stereotypes. I don't mind people using a stereorype to make fun of the stereotype or if they add 1 character extremely feminine or masculine as long as they make sure to let the reader know that is not the norm.

Like you said everyone is super diverse and there are a lot of different people even if they are categorized into the same group (if you want to see it that way).

That is also one of the main reasons I avoided creating my OC with a certain hairstyle. I feel like there are a lot of lesbian couples out there but the media/entertainment industry mainly uses 2 types of hairstyles. Super short hair or half their hair shaved.... :sweat_smile:

I don't mind the hairstyles per se. I just get tired to see everyone think that in order to be a lesbian you have to look a certain way.

Having said that I think it is super important to investigate any topic you want to write about. Like cooking, science, etc.

As for romance I don't think people need to investigate much as long as they don't fall into stereotypes thinking that by being non-straight your romance will somehow be different. At least, that's how I see romance. All romances are equal but with slight difference from couple to couple.

XiuLyn_12
Mar '23

I've been planning to make a story about a gay relationship. But I hesitated to start because I don't live in a country where being openly gay is an option. I wanted to include various types of couples without offending anyone.
I've researched about it and read a lot of BL and GL comics (although I understand some of those comics don't represent how they are)
I agree with you. I don't think jumping into a particular comic plot is appropriate just because it'll most likely be famous.

JoshRaed
Mar '23

Do you have any specific advice for the depiction of a feminine gay male character, and making them come off properly and not as an offensive stereotype?

Lensing
Mar '23

Writing gay characters / creating gay characters can be really difficult, even for people who know
their subject. Everything which has to do with someone´s sexuality can be difficult and offensive.
But I 100% agree with you, especially with "please at least try to come at it with some sense of
awareness and education"

candiedcotton
Mar '23
JoshRaed

Honestly, I don't really know any feminine gay guys. Most of the gay guys I've ever met were... I dunno, just like any straight guy. I do know femme guys exist but they're really not that common in comparison. Since I don't have that experience, you'd probably be better off asking other people in the community who consider themselves femme. I think reddit has some decent communities, could try there.

Katzalcoatl
Mar '23

I know a couple of feminine gay guys. Hmm, best way to describe them is they are sassy?

In a sense they are stereotypical but not at the same time? Hard to describe them, tbh.

I met them during my time as a cheerleader. So maybe that is why they were sassy?

The other gay guys I know aren't feminine. Like you said you would never distinguish them from a straight guy if they didn't tell you about it.

candiedcotton
Mar '23

I've seen a few here and there at clubs or whatever, but yeah, it's pretty rare.

I think... as far as the purpose of the question, I would not write a gay character as feminine because it is very, very easy to fall into a really unpleasant and bigoted stereotype about gay men. The whole thing with being 'effeminate' or what have you. I'd just avoid it entirely. I don't write my gay characters as femme, personally. Just normal dudes who do cool stuff and happen to be gay.

Katzalcoatl
Mar '23

Yup. Plus saying feminine is a pretty broad spectrum.

For me a masculine female character can be someone strong and protective while for others masculine can mean an alpha male but in female version (which I wouldn't find attractive).

Personally, I think you should write personalities of characters without taking into account their sexual identity or gender. If you want a flirty character then create a flirty character if they happen to be gay so be it. But don't make them flirty just because they are gay (haven't met many flirty gay people but I am just using gay as an example since that was the topic).

As long as you plan your character like any other character I think your writing will come out fine and not offensive.

Bulalakaw
Mar '23

To write an effeminate gay character without being offensive, I say just write them with the same considerations as you would any other characters. I've met effeminate gay men and masculine gay men, and at the end of the day, the traits of being "effeminate" and "masculine" are just a single part of their personhood. These people I know are brilliant scholars, singers, writers, activists, professors, and all sorts of characteristics. They have lives and personalities that go beyond them being effeminate. When you write that effeminate gay character, ask yourself, how else would you describe this person? If the only thing you can come up about them is that they're delicate, pretty, and effeminate, then you should consider giving them other traits.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an effeminate gay man. Fact of the matter is, they exist out there, and the ones I know are strong-willed individuals, especially given how homphobic our country can be. It's all about making characters like them multifaceted people.

Also, I feel like this could also be addressed by having more than one gay character. If the only gay character is a highly effeminate gay guy who ticks all the stereotypes, then yes, it could definitely be bad optics. Even when you've given them enough of a personality and story beyond them being effeminate, sometimes people might not give you the benefit of the doubt. But having a diverse cast where they present differently, have varying personalities, lives, etc. will definitely help you out.

tyowens
Mar '23

I would say, think of all of your characters as having many masks, or sides to their personality, that are not always on display. While I've encountered a spectrum of gay men across my life and dating (which is what's missing from media, a spectrum of characters), I would say many, but not all, of the effeminate gay men I've known, tend to be more performative about that side of the personality. I don't mean to sound judgmental by using the word performative, I just mean that for many people their personalities change depending on who they are around and where they are. Are they in a large crowd at a party or a small setting with one or two people? What I've seen a lot is that there are many gay men who when thrown together in a crowd, part of their personality becomes amplified and they all sort of play off each other when around lots of gay men. This characteristic is close to the portrayal of stereotypical flamboyant or effeminate gay men. So if you want a character who portrays that side, I would say don't always make the volume on full blast, that character should be more fluid in their personality.

If instead, you're going for a character who is soft, subservient, and quiet (which sadly is not what society should be labeling as effeminate), I'd say it's far more interesting to give this character other qualities, like appearance, that always don't match up with those personality traits.

NickRowler
Mar '23

I think when it comes to effeminate men, I think it varies from person to person when it comes to them finding these characters offensive or not. I think gay men who are not fem can sometimes get annoyed at these characters because of the lack of representation for other types of gay men.

I think if you wanted to avoid being offensive, you should avoid hyper sexualizing them. Also, not all feminine are extroverts. I think some writers fall back on making them loud and the center of attention. But most of the feminine gay men I have met have been shy and quiet. And their outfits were usually unisex instead of being over the top or flashy.