I feel like if a story has a major gay character crush on the straight male protagonist, the story will be bad gay representation. I’ve only ever seen examples that prove my point.

Like bojack horseman, where the one important gay character for multiple seasons is herb, who exists to have his life ruined, get cancer (specifically ass cancer for the sake of a gay joke about it), and die. Someone eats his ashes on accident, which was funny but only highlight how his character is treated by the plot.

Been saying this for years. If your character's only trait is that they are gay, or your story's only hook is the couple is gay, it's boring. Just think of it in reverse. A story where the character's defining trait is straight. Most BL/GL comics are very generic in my opinion and really rest on tropes and stereotypes. And don't get me started on the dominant people in most relationships are straight up predators we would never put up with if it was a man pursuing a girl. I think the stories just need to mature and break out of the mode of "this is what a gay comics has to be like."

I kind of hate that the default template for conflict in a gay relationship in mainstream fiction is struggle related to sexuality.

Like the adult romcoms are about it, the teen romances are about it, the oscar bait misery films are about it, is there nothing else these people can think to write a gay couple doing? Do these stories only exist to be representation? Is the fact that they’re gay at all purely for plot convenience to create drama?

Like I way prefer Castle swimmer to heartstopper but of course heart stopper is the one about “what if gay” so of course it got to be a a TV show first.

I also hate the gay best friend trope because the character is never really defined beyond the stereotypical idea of a gay person. For example, Janice Ian from mean girls is already the best friend and has experiences with homophobia, but rather than being the gay best friend she has a gay best friend herself, because she’s too much of a real character to be the gay friend.

The gay best friend isn’t even a sidekick, they’re like a sidekick’s sidekick, defined by a vague idea of how gay people act and by hanging around a more important character all the time.

Yeah I really really tried to make my characters Eric and Winston, who are gay, have many character difference traits and stories of just being human. I don’t even explicitly state that they are gay no one bats an eye in the story and no one calls them anything really. Except that they are egg traffickers so they call them whatever any criminal would be called. Also the focus is not their romance in my story but it is shown. My subject is a COMEDY CRIME story and that is my focus.

I also just try to avoid stereotypes in general. I try to make my characters PEOPLE with feelings, hardships, struggles, strengths, weaknesses fears dreams. We should start making characters as people. I’ve seen nowadays movies with an agenda of a certain type of character. A certain race, gender etc is just put on there on display and doesn’t give the characters anything else. They’re BORING! I’m done with this! Just write human beings HUMAN BEINGS for God’s sake!

sighs

I agree, I got really frustrated when teens (usually girls) were using the term “gay panic” to be uwu and it even appeared in the TV show version of Heartstopper. I don’t think these people are aware of the homophobic history of this term.

I also dislike that some female writers who write gay stories and say “This isn’t for gay male readers.” If you are too embarrassed to show your gay story to a gay person, maybe don’t write it.

I think the problem with ALOT of BL genre specific gay media is that they are still being wrapped up in a 'straight' package. Stories are still being made with the male-female stereotype in mind and it's bonkers. I've consumed a lot BL, japan specific, media in my time on the internet(not so much now) and even as a teen I was like 'is this really...good?'. The Seme/Uke stereotype, the down right assault of the 'bottom' character for EVERY sexual interaction, the lack of autonomy of either of the pair to be anything other than gay has always grossed me out. I'm glad we are able to branch out beyond that on both the eastern and western front for indie media but the 'marketable' gay media needs a lot of work.

The other side of the coin, for the indie stuff that's bad/stereotypical/etc, is that I can bet most of the time it was written by a woman/teen girl and only half of the time those people are actually some flavor of queer themselves. They have the badge(maybe) but they are still catering to the hetero mindset. It's fine if you are working your own queer journey out through your work. I imagine most of us to do but damn are you that two-dimensional in real life? It's a lack of life experience and true understanding that makes it so rough to even get through the story.

As a bi woman myself I totally feel you. I think what consuming so much 'bad' gay media has taught me is that your sexuality is such a very small part of who you are. Obviously, if you are looking for a partner or coming into your own as a queer person it will take up more space as you work through that time in your life but the idea that that is all you are is so sad. I see that mindset with a lot with young queer people in real life too. I don't know if it's a coming into your own or an over consumption of 'bad' gay media but it's like 'yes cool me too. What else is there to you as a person though?'

This is all coming from a person who ABSOLUTELY watches garbage hallmark romance movies and reads those tacky 'bisexual awakening' romance novels so please know I know I am not one to talk. But I try to do better with my own work or subvert in some way or better yet not even touch on it unless it is a part of a romance plot point in which case it's pertinent to know if the person you are attracted to is attracted to you as well like anyone else would need to know.

I think there may be a bit of a generational divide on this. I think it's fair to say that on average, those discovering their sexuality and coming out and falling in love in the last decade in places like North American and European democracies had different, broader, and in a not insignificant number of cases less dangerous and more welcoming experiences than those coming out in the late 90s/early 2000s, which in turn were different than those coming out in the late 70s early 80s, a huge swath of whom are dead from AIDS.

For a lot of older people it seems like the gayness struggle was the biggest part of their experience and stores focused only on that resonate with them (not just because of their experience but also because of the very limited amount of media showing such relationships back then); while now, homophobia is not monolithic and younger people's experiences have so much variation that readers want more: they want people and the stories about them to be more than just about their gayness and not clinging to stereotypes which are outdated, or assuming there is only one way to be and "act" gay.

This perspective is not to downplay in any way the struggles LGBT people, especially youth, still have everywhere in coming out. My own daughter, a young teen, confessed to me that she was scared to death of our reaction when she came out. I actually had to work hard to maintain my composure as I gently told her "My dear child, you have two dads, why would you think we would be upset in any way?" 🤣

Awww that’s soooo sweet and wholesome! With your daughter 🥺️ and she has two dads too. ️ my heart just melted

God bless her and your family ️

I think some people just don't know how to write it and are writing based on the characters/tropes they have access to. Like Kurt Hummel from Glee is the quintessential gay drama kid. While he's probably super relatable to some people, if he's your only reference point for a gay main character, the character could easily come off as stereotypical. Some of my favorite queer characters were written to be human first. I don't think a lot of people remember that when they are writing gay characters.

I've even seen children's media have a bisexual erasure problem.

The main character of the two princes podcast on Spotify is susceptible to the influence of sexy flirty lady monster magic before meeting his love interest, but after he meets his love interest, someone tries it on him it doesn't work, and he explicitly says it's because he's into guys. Like they basically implied that meeting a hot guy turned him gay.

I've had a theory there are three main types of gay characters in mainstream media. The sex obsessed attractive gay, who ultimately has to be punished and have some tragic ending. The best friend who has to be portrayed as far from sexually appealing as possible so he's not threatening to the audience (be it physical characteristics or personality). And the older washed up gay who sits around complaining about why they're all old and miserable and can't find love while still doing all the same things they did as young men. These are not healthy role models for young men.

But I also get offended by some queer media where the story tries to tell me that in order to be gay I have to like campy things or act a certain way, or use specific labels, but maybe there have been so many of those because they're still trying to cater to what they think the mainstream views gays as? I don't know. I'm technically a bad gay since I'm gray ace and happen to like men, I felt growing up just as ignored or under represented by queer and straight authors alike, but maybe I was looking in the wrong place for content. I can understand how people get angry about bi erasure for sure.

Listen im not gonna pretend im not the first person to complain about shitty steriotypes and how uncomfortably sexualized every BL i see is to the point someone sends me a BL with anything remotely wholesome i eat that shit up..... BUT

There is gonna be a point where we have to accept that some of this toxic and/or "problematic" tropes and story beats... are actually just a guilty pleasure that a lot of people just wanna go home and read after their long day at work.

Is it mostly teenage girls who just wanna see two hot boys kissing? yeah mostly. but theres also people who enjoy hate reading and actually LIKE having a really shitty and toxic story to read. Hell, I watched 50 shades of grey with my bondage enthisist friends and we had a grand time yelling at the movie for being bad. its still a BAD movie, but people got opened up to the idea of feminine sexuality and bondage (for better or wrose) and REAL bondage people can explain what the movie did worng and how to do it right wink wink nudge nudge

I greatly dislike a lot of BL tropes and a lot of BL writen by women but... i mean a majority of them are writing it for themsleves? I tend to jsut stay away from it or try to make my own versions of a "good" BL everyones got their own taste in media and im sure they would consider my "healthy" BL romance to be boring and lacking any "hot drama" to make it intresting for them so they would avoid my shit like the plgue just like i would avoid theirs

Thank for bringing up this subject to the table now I know where to find someone who actually has had those experiences. However, everyone’s experiences wether gay or straight or bi or black or white or purple orange and blue experiences are not alike.

Again like I said life is complicated and people aren’t so black and white as we try to make it. As simple as we want it to be it can’t be so because if everyone was the same, life would be boring as hell.

It all depends on context for me. If the gay character is just ment to be the sluty character cause that's the kind of character they wanted to write about and he's consistent and has a character outside of being sluty then I think it can be fine if it's written well.

But I assume you're referring to when it becomes sussy baka and every gay character this particular writer writes about is always the slut- always sleeping around- always only exclusively on screen to tell a gay joke or be slutty- and literally has no personality outside of those jokes and those scenes.

But I guess I also just consider this "bad writing" more then I consider it toxic tho there's no reason that can't over lap

When I think of toxic tropes, I think more along the lines of those weird BL/Yaoi tropes. Like treating the sub like a little girl or someone constantly going "no homo" whenever they kiss or things get sexual. Or BL fans attacking bisexuals (fictional or real) if they end up dating a girl because it ruins their mlm ship.

I am not talking about feminine men or bottoms who like to crossdressing. I am talking about when the dom is an adult man and the sub looks like a little girl. Ex, those weird Black Butler ships.