The importance of knowing your subject

[candiedcotton]

Yep. All sexualities are complex because all people are complex. Relationships are complex.

I remember having a massive crush on a coworker many years ago, but they were definitely straight and I definitely respected that. Never even brought it up. They ended up finding a girlfriend, going mad over heels for her and eventually got married. And I supported them the entire way. It was truly wonderful to see how incredibly happy he was, like one of those unheard of fairytale romances. We were best friends for a long time (they eventually moved and we just naturally grew apart, but it's one of my fondest relationships).

[JoshRaed]

I have zero issue with most tropes in BL, honestly, but what bothers me is when people don't understand the tropes they're using. Like "he's gay so he must like ALL men".

In the scott pilgrim comics, which are good, Wallace wells thinks Lucas lee is a dumb sellout actor. But because the movie is bad, in that he obviously thinks Lee is hot, because you can’t just have a gay character NOT be into every man he sees. What do you take him for, a nuanced person with thoughts and feelings beyond his sexuality?

[abigaillmartin]

Exactly I have a crush on a coworker who is a lovely girl but she and I are great friends too. She knows I like her but she doesn’t mind but we are just friends. Relationships sure are complicated.

[candiedcotton]

Bisexual erasure is also an issue but that's a topic I could rant on for a long time, lol.

But I feel you, for sure. Bi people get treated like they're absolute sex maniacs, even within the LGBT+ community. It's one of the things that sets of my rage. Ahem.

[JoshRaed]

I've even seen children's media have a bisexual erasure problem.

The main character of the two princes podcast on Spotify is susceptible to the influence of sexy flirty lady monster magic before meeting his love interest, but after he meets his love interest, someone tries it on him it doesn't work, and he explicitly says it's because he's into guys. Like they basically implied that meeting a hot guy turned him gay.

[abigaillmartin]

Exactly I’m not a sex manic. I’ve never even kissed anyone yet! People treat like having multiple preferences don’t even exist!

[candiedcotton]

Well that's preposterous.

Only frogs can turn gay.

[tyowens]

I've had a theory there are three main types of gay characters in mainstream media. The sex obsessed attractive gay, who ultimately has to be punished and have some tragic ending. The best friend who has to be portrayed as far from sexually appealing as possible so he's not threatening to the audience (be it physical characteristics or personality). And the older washed up gay who sits around complaining about why they're all old and miserable and can't find love while still doing all the same things they did as young men. These are not healthy role models for young men.

But I also get offended by some queer media where the story tries to tell me that in order to be gay I have to like campy things or act a certain way, or use specific labels, but maybe there have been so many of those because they're still trying to cater to what they think the mainstream views gays as? I don't know. I'm technically a bad gay since I'm gray ace and happen to like men, I felt growing up just as ignored or under represented by queer and straight authors alike, but maybe I was looking in the wrong place for content. I can understand how people get angry about bi erasure for sure.

[candiedcotton]

I get that, too. Like, I was heavily into sports as a kid. I was also the rebellious skater who hung out with a bunch of straight dudes and got into trouble all the time. I was in the military (secretly at time since the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing was going). Most all of those are things society doesn't see as 'gay guy' material.

I've never really had a thing for porn. Don't judge people who do, but it just doesn't do anything for me. Never slept around either and all of my relationships have been dedicated and pretty wholesome.

There are also areas where I guess I'm pretty 'typical' gay. I love kids, and caring for them. I'm very openly a feminist, I get really involved in activism, I'm an artist.

But if you stop to think, those attributes could easily be any gender, and any sexuality. It's just weird how roles are so entrenched not just in genders, but in sexualities as well.

[TAMAnnoying]

Listen im not gonna pretend im not the first person to complain about shitty steriotypes and how uncomfortably sexualized every BL i see is to the point someone sends me a BL with anything remotely wholesome i eat that shit up..... BUT

There is gonna be a point where we have to accept that some of this toxic and/or "problematic" tropes and story beats... are actually just a guilty pleasure that a lot of people just wanna go home and read after their long day at work.

Is it mostly teenage girls who just wanna see two hot boys kissing? yeah mostly. but theres also people who enjoy hate reading and actually LIKE having a really shitty and toxic story to read. Hell, I watched 50 shades of grey with my bondage enthisist friends and we had a grand time yelling at the movie for being bad. its still a BAD movie, but people got opened up to the idea of feminine sexuality and bondage (for better or wrose) and REAL bondage people can explain what the movie did worng and how to do it right wink wink nudge nudge

I greatly dislike a lot of BL tropes and a lot of BL writen by women but... i mean a majority of them are writing it for themsleves? I tend to jsut stay away from it or try to make my own versions of a "good" BL everyones got their own taste in media and im sure they would consider my "healthy" BL romance to be boring and lacking any "hot drama" to make it intresting for them so they would avoid my shit like the plgue just like i would avoid theirs

[candiedcotton]

I personally advocate for people of any gender or sexuality to write any sort of content, and I fully support people writing all kinds of relationships. Toxic or otherwise, classic seme/uke stuff, I genuinely don't care. I think women having a space where they can write erotic (or just romantic) fiction about two gay guys is absolutely fair, given how women-- especially lesbians-- have been all but owned by straight men in media for literal centuries. Women have a right to enjoy whatever couple types they like. Men really have no right to bitch, IMO.

That said, I'm very specifically focusing on people who write gay characters in ways that follow real-world harmful ideology. Writing a gay character who hits on literally everyone because who he is, is that gay trope. Because the people writing it believe that is what a gay man is and don't have any other sort of understanding. I think that's different than analyzing typical BL tropes.

[abigaillmartin]

Thank for bringing up this subject to the table now I know where to find someone who actually has had those experiences. However, everyone’s experiences wether gay or straight or bi or black or white or purple orange and blue experiences are not alike.

Again like I said life is complicated and people aren’t so black and white as we try to make it. As simple as we want it to be it can’t be so because if everyone was the same, life would be boring as hell.

[TAMAnnoying]

I just feel like theres always going to be some kind of overlap of "person who is just trying to make the most intresting gay drama possible" and "very harmful gay tropes" I think its fine to go to the authors and try to educate them as... again they could just be 16 year olds having fun or 30 year olds who have no internet comunity experience. But you really shouldnt try to mind read which ones are doing it for Tlols and who is just agressivly uneducated- and prob shouldnt be too suprised if they HAVE fans and their fans get upset youre trying to "educate" them when the fans feel like "theres nothing toxic" or sometimes just as commonly "yea its toxic, thats the point"

[candiedcotton]

I get what you're saying, but I'd argue there's a difference between a toxic relationship (think something like Twilight or 50 Shades, or even Beauty and the Beast) and something where you are using bigotry (all female characters in a show are damsels in distress, or the only gay character present is constantly trying to sleep with every man he comes across).

[TAMAnnoying]

It all depends on context for me. If the gay character is just ment to be the sluty character cause that's the kind of character they wanted to write about and he's consistent and has a character outside of being sluty then I think it can be fine if it's written well.

But I assume you're referring to when it becomes sussy baka and every gay character this particular writer writes about is always the slut- always sleeping around- always only exclusively on screen to tell a gay joke or be slutty- and literally has no personality outside of those jokes and those scenes.

But I guess I also just consider this "bad writing" more then I consider it toxic tho there's no reason that can't over lap

[NickRowler]

When I think of toxic tropes, I think more along the lines of those weird BL/Yaoi tropes. Like treating the sub like a little girl or someone constantly going "no homo" whenever they kiss or things get sexual. Or BL fans attacking bisexuals (fictional or real) if they end up dating a girl because it ruins their mlm ship.

[candiedcotton]

Like treating the sub like a little girl

Some dudes are into that kinda thing too, though. There's a whole kink around it. lol.

I mean I get where people are coming from, I just genuinely don't think those tropes matter much. So what if they wanna make the designated bottom basically a girl? Eh, let 'em. Let 'em be happy. It's just different when it's bigotry. Like attacking bisexuals for sure is a problem, or hating on female characters purely because they're female. That's just not cool.

[NickRowler]

I am not talking about feminine men or bottoms who like to crossdressing. I am talking about when the dom is an adult man and the sub looks like a little girl. Ex, those weird Black Butler ships.

[candiedcotton]

That isn't a BL trope so much as a trope in general. But it's definitely gross.

[TheLemmaLlama]

I also dislike that some female writers who write gay stories and say “This isn’t for gay male readers.” If you are too embarrassed to show your gay story to a gay person, maybe don’t write it.

I strongly disagree with telling people to not write stuff if they know it's cringe or harmful and are completely upfront about that so people who don't want to read it can avoid it.

There's a difference between being genuinely ignorant and perpetuating harmful tropes because you actually think that's how things work, and deliberately writing that stuff because it's a guilty pleasure and you're trying to warn people about it like a responsible person. I don't think anyone has the right to police what other people write about in their own space.

There's only really a problem when people think/act like that's normal, and spread it into general culture where anyone can see it and be influenced by it without knowing any better. I agree that it's important to know your subject if your work is intended for the wider world.