Jun 2022
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Jun 2022
Aug 2022
BoomerZ
Jun '22

I'm going to go in a different direction here. Yes I understand you want your comic to be "art". With that definition comes all the problems with it. The hard work, long hours, under appreciated masses, and the problem of no one caring as much as you do. But remember, your art is just some else's product. Be that some one is a website that publishes it down to the reader that just wants to be entertained. You knew getting into it this was the demands to be popular. Back in the day comic artists gave up a lot to get in the industry, and even after that they drew multiple comics a month. And after all that, we remember a handful of them by name. The big stars like McFarlane, Lee, Liefield... the rest fall off into nothing. That is the way for being an artist. Do the best you can, better than you did yesterday, is all you can hope for. Then hopefully you get an audience and make some money. And BLW, our industry is no different than singers, bands, or other artist out there. It's just the way it is.

Shanny8
Jun '22
1
bronte448

CREATORS should [also] realize that they are not computers. At some point- especially if Webtoon isn't PAYING you to churn out these episodes on a weekly basis- you as the creator, need to peel back your production.

I was posting on both platforms(Tapas & Webtoon) and after this last injury riddled hiatus, I am NOT in the place where I want to keep further wrecking my body at that pace for likes & views. If I put out one page/episode every 2-3 weeks, then so be it...I'm pretty much like right now I can't and dont live off my earnings as a comic creator because it is NOT sustainable. I want to, but I'm not going to toil and wreck myself for an insane number of years when the [comics/webcomics] industry as a whole refuse to compensate and/or value creators; if I'm going to create, I'm going to do it in a manner that benefits ME.

@bronte448 I'm not attacking you, and I apologize if this looked like I was...I'm just...I get in stages where I really become disgusted with the way these webcomic hosting site/models work.

VibrantFoxRegular
Jun '22
BoomerZ

my only rebuttal is that just because thats the way things are doesnt make it okay and that goes for all industries and a hell of a lot of things outside of media but this isnt about stuff like that

art may be perceived as a product but its still a luxury theres labor and knowledge and skill that goes into it do to just say "this is how things are, deal with it" accomplishes nothing. sometimes you have to rock the boat and personally i hope to high heaven that more folks do

why else would there be workers unions or the animation guild? to ensure that the working environments are fair and healthy. breaking you back for next to nothing isnt a good thing and thats precisely the reason more folks are being vocal about it

and i wanna make clear that this isnt directed at you in specific but more at this kind of mindset because by just going with the flow it perpetuates this unhealthy working style

@Shanny8 covers some of my emotions on this perfectly because the way things are right now truly arent sustainable much less is any of it worth it especially when it comes to injuries folks have sustained as a consequence of all this overworking. Like ive seen folks my age if not younger talking about carpal tunnel, RSIs, back problems and a bunch of other thing and it doesntneven go into folks working themselves to literal death in these industries so yeah its just not worth "going with the flow" or "just dealing with it" :\

NickRowler
Jun '22
BoomerZ

Why did you pick Liefield???? Like different strokes for different folks but he is a bit infamous and not really liked.

Anyone who doesn't know who this is, he drew this.

image.png640x860 811 KB

Also I hope by Lee you don't mean Stan Lee, because he wasn't an artist.

BoomerZ
Jun '22
NickRowler

BY dismissing Liefield you dismiss his cultural impact on the comic world. And Lee could be Jim or Jay.

NickRowler
Jun '22
bronte448

Stan Lee is famous as a writer. I think people often forget about Jack Kirby who was the artist of a lot of the original Marvel comics.

gabriellabalagna
Jun '22

I just want to add that the number of panels in one episode is often too much for me when reading other people's comics.

I sometimes find myself tiring of so much scrolling and checking to see how much more is left to keep reading. Long episodes can feel like such a drag and the panels look too similar or sketchy.

I've counted before and some episodes seriously have 70-90 panels! To me, that's just way too overwhelming for one episode.

TheLemmaLlama
Jun '22
1
VibrantFox

I'm pro-boat-rocking, but it's also like ... I don't think we need the boat? I can't really bring myself to get up in arms about this. I feel like what @BoomerZ is getting at here is: if you want to make art, make art. Just don't complain about people treating it as a product.

How you react to it is up to you, You can continue at your own pace and not cave to the pressure to work long, hard hours, but then you don't get to complain about your work going unseen and people getting bored and leaving because you're too slow. Or you can throw yourself into the rat race and hope to place well, and I guess betray your fellow artists by contributing to raising the output standards. But the choice has always been ours.

I get that it can be hard to resist the pressure, but I can sympathize more with someone who's like "how do I deal with the pressure to push myself to an unhealthy degree to meet readers' expectations, help" than someone who's like "audiences these days are so entitled, we as webcomic makers are doomed to slavery, and that's terrible" ^^;

Shanny8
Jun '22
BoomerZ

Not gonna dismiss Liefeld for his impact on the industry and such, but as things begun to settle & unravel- the bottom line is dude isn't the best artist; he caught fire when the industry was shifting its perimeters...by more people looking at what [Jim] Lee was doing and how aesthetically sound most of his work was, it made it easier to dissect Liefeld's stuff. There was a period where Liefeld was trying to refine his stuff and get better, and then it seemed he just said "f**k it" & went back to being lazy about his work, as well as bitching & barking at folks on Twitter.

Zugaikotsu
Jun '22

Not directly to OP, but tbh if, you're not drawing webtoons professionally, just do what you can, the best you can. I read TONS of interesting Canvas titles which less than 15 panel chapters and they have a lot of subs and patrons. Usually they balance the small amount of panels with faster paced writing and meaningful action. If someone complains, tell them to gobble on your chinchin.

If you want to be a pro, tho, unfortunatelly there is not much escape. Once users get used to a certain standard, it's too late. If they are paying, too, it's Oof. I'm getting back from a year and something hiatus because I couldn't even stare at my own characters anymore, and I'm already spreading some oil on my back to make the lashing less hurtful. Professional Webcomics may be an excruciating journey, but hey! It's also where I get my best pay and it's my most successful artistic endeavour so far...

Another thing, "Golden Age" on Webtoons is long gone. If you didn't make it to Originals until 2019, it will be reaaaaaaaaaaally hard for you to get an audience now. Most probably WT will kep squeezing Lore Olympus for more 10 years than investing in new IP.

VibrantFoxRegular
Jun '22
TheLemmaLlama

i respect this and i absolutely respect the folks who manage to keep up i think my plea is just a bit of balance or a little extra patience for those who maybe dont have the time or ability to keep up with those standards which obviously can lead to some more nuanced convos but i know that only so much can be done to create change which is why ive just kind of backed away from it all

it hurts but then again thats life or whatever :confused:

Shanny8
Jun '22

ANNNND not too long after the post I made, a pic goes up on Twitter from an ad/campaign that Webtoons put up in a train station that states "Comics is Literature's fun side hustle"

So all of comic artist twitter is up in arms about it.

And Webtoon just released a tweet/statement trying to walk it back...

Le sigh.

VibrantFoxRegular
Jun '22

yeah i was kinda wondering if anyone would double back here after the uproar but it's interesting because the ads themselves kind of speak volumes on how presumably the site or maybe more precisely it's higher ups view creators as not much more than content and ip farms for them to generate revenue off of

like for folks who want context theres the main post that kind of set things off here
https://twitter.com/KenneDuck/status/153675661456423731342

and webtoons response here
https://twitter.com/webtoonofficial/status/153682079496090419232

TroyVSTheWorld
Jun '22

This is why I draw comedic gag comics. I mean, I'm not exactly marketable since my comic has "punk' in the name and I'm pretty much all about taking down the big corporation, but eh. Revolution and renaissance has to be taken into our own hands or it'll never come to fruition.

sams_cartoon_shack
Jun '22

Same here. Besides gag comics being a good starting point when getting into writing and drawing characters, even if Webtoon did express interest in turning it into an original, they wouldn't be able to request for me to create a longer-form comic without looking incredibly tone-deaf about the structure of daily comic strips.

nathanKmcwilliamsIn the making of Bunneh The Rabbit
Jun '22

To be frank...I really don't think it is a ridiculous standard. These aggregate sites are running a business for paying customers. They also give people a platform to host stuff on for free.
It's not like they're asking the small creators to do this.
For the bigger creators, they're employing people that willingly signed a contract to produce webcomics at the competitive rate.

Yes it does set a standard. But as an amateur, not signed into a contract, small creator I'm not beholden to that standard. If I want to grow my audience, I will have to do all the work, promoting, etc. Am I a fan of the tactics Tapas and Webtoon use sometimes? No I'm not. But I don't expect them to act out of character for what they are.
After all, I'm on here for free. I didn't sign anything saying I'd make X pages for X deadline. I own my responsibility to produce my work at my own pace.

sams_cartoon_shack
Jun '22

I see what you mean, but I think the issue is that general webtoon readers aren't aware enough of the differences between original series, which often have entire teams behind them, and independent creators who usually work solo.

As a result, they are so spoiled by the long, weekly updates that they become impatient when reading series which don't update as frequently with as much content. This wasn't as much of an issue before the vertical scroll became popular since most webcomics were used to updating a page's worth of material a few times a week with hiatuses when needed.

nathanKmcwilliamsIn the making of Bunneh The Rabbit
Jun '22

I think in general the mass population of entertainment consumers is just spoiled rotten by media catering to them. This has been going on for years, there's an exess of entertainment for people to pick from, so they naturally demand more.
It's not necessarily one group of readers, it's a culture of consumers that's been nurtured over the last several decades to get exactly what they want, when they want.