511 / 587
Mar 2020

Yeah, all of those concerns are perfectly valid.

If I can put it simply, I don't think Tapas did a great job in choosing their investors. Maybe they didn't have much to choose from, seeing as how webcomics aren't exactly a booming economy with investors crawling over each other to get first in line. But it's very obvious that if their investors had a hand in this, they are extremely disconnected from what they're seeding their money into, to a very obvious extreme (to the point that it's almost concerning? Like y'know the decisions you're making could actually ruin you and lose your investments?) And that probably comes with the fact that again, webcomics aren't a booming economy. How many of Tapas' investors actually know what they're putting their money into?

Hell, I remember Michael telling the mod team (back when I was on it) a very funny story about him as the Editor in Chief explaining to a bunch of suited up investors what "Boy Love" was and why it was the upcoming trendy thing. Like just picture that lol These are the people making decisions for the company :laughing: I know that obviously Michael had to do a lot of legwork to get them on the same page and convince them it would be a worthy investment, but maybe don't put those same people in charge if they had to be fully explained what they were putting their money into? God, people with expendable income can be so dumb.

Honestly, it all brings to mind a very strange - but I promise it make sense - comparison to one particular video game company - Hello Games, the small team that developed No Man's Sky.

Do you guys remember when No Man's Sky came out? Despite its delays, people were so excited for it. And then it flopped because it was obvious the developers had bitten off WAY more than they could chew, they didn't have any PR to keep them from saying stupid shit (the lead developer did most of the talking and it lead to a lot of miscommunication and things getting blown out of proportion because he's just not a public speaker or used to dealing with the media), and the game, as a result, was full of bugs, and only had a fraction of the features they had promised or the gamers had been lead to believe would be in the game thanks to the lead developer not knowing how to word things very carefully to an eager press ready to blow up headlines.

We've seen these fallouts time and time again (no pun intended, another good example is Fallout 76, which did NOT recover well from its mistakes btw and they keep making more of them). We expected No Man's Sky to fall to the wayside and we'd remember it as this horrible game that failed miserably.

But guess what happened?

The developers got back to work. They went silent. They stopped talking to the press. People assumed they had abandoned the game and they couldn't count on it ever being fixed.

And then, months later, a patch released.

All the major concerning bugs, fixed, with fixes for the smaller ones on the way. A handful of promised features were put in.

And all those updates were free to those who had already purchased the game. They didn't have to pay the company more money for the mistakes they had already made.

And every update since has been free. No DLC paywalls. No microtransactions. The game comes as it is with its improved patches, for the same price as it was upon release.

And now No Man's Sky is a legitimately great game.

Right now, Tapas is at a crossroads, where they're currently No Man's Sky upon its initial - failed - release, and they can either keep being like Hello Games and get their shit together, or they can become Bethesda: saying things like "we can't answer that question" or ghosting in a way that says "Well we know it's a problem, but we're not going to do anything about it". I want to see them do better by being Hello Games.

I can't perfectly make the comparison without rambling, so if you have the time, I highly suggest you check out the Internet Historian's videos on both Fallout 76 and No Man's Sky and just compare them. Yes, the videos are a bit longer, but they're absolutely worth a watch (especially if you're into gaming and, in Fallout 76's case, really hilarious roasting sessions lol). Hopefully, if you do take a look at them, you'll see the full reasoning as to why I've made the comparisons and why I know Tapas can do better.

As it currently stands, assuming much of this is investor based (which is painfully obvious), it's clear that Tapas just doesn't have a good relationship or aligned priorities with the people seeding them money. And as a result, it's being led astray by people who probably didn't even know what a webcomic was before Michael sat them down and explained it to them. It's a big assumption to make but can you really say you don't suspect the same, even by the slightest bit?

And yes, I'm worried about Michael. I'm worried about Yoon and all the devs who have been here from the start who are obviously under a lot of pressure to satisfy investors otherwise lose their jobs. Most of all, I'm worried about their passions being exploited and distorted into something unrecognizable. Because believe me, I can practically hear the reservations and uncertainty coming through in some of the dev's posts when they post. I can genuinely tell that many of them wish they still had the power to tell us things, and keep us updated, and actually discuss the platform's quality and future with us, but they're now obviously in a position now where that's no longer possible.

They bit off more than they could chew and they've lost sight of their destination along the way :confused: It's really, really discouraging to see.

But it's been years now. Maybe it hasn't been long enough, but I'd like to see Tapas soon be in a position where they can 'shop around' more for their investors and who ends up on their Board of Directors and as a result, get investors who actually know what they're putting their money into and how to get the most out of it in a way that's productive for them, the company, and its users. Because it's obvious the people that are there now haven't the slightest clue. Tapas may not have been around as long as some of the other corporate giants out there, but they're not a baby company anymore; they're growing up now and it's time they started putting on their big boy pants and flexing their own decision making lol

Yeah I've seen IH's vids and have been keeping up with Fallout's saga with Angry Joe's rants and news updates. xD

But hopefully Tapas will enter that 'silent mode' and work on things in the background. Maybe this is the start of it? Still, people will go on about their reticence until results are shown. Certainly Tapas needs to be held accountable but boy, damned if you do, damned if you don't. -sigh-
Everything's just so up in the air right now the world over and it's quite depressing.

Yup, that's the hard part. Maybe it's 'too soon' but it's like what we're going through now with quarantining. People are gonna follow quarantine rules and then not see instant results - they're gonna see cases go up, in fact, as testing becomes more available and symptoms start to show, but it just means that we're actually identifying those cases now - and think "UGH QUARANTINING ISN'T WORKING." It is. Just not in the way that you think it is.

In Tapas' case, if they go silent, it's definitely gonna be "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Maybe they don't need to go DEAD silent, because I literally just highlighted all their communication problems above LOL but if appearing to be the bad guy for a while means they get their act together in the long run, I'd be content with that. Lord knows I'll probably still be here by then, despite all my complaining. But I know it's the public as a whole that's the concern. And making sure Tapas doesn't go under in the meantime.

But that's if they're even working on it. There's so much going on right now, it's hard to perceive what's in our future and in Tapas'. I just know that as it is right now, it's not working. They can't keep doing the same thing expecting it to eventually work out.

I'd like to think that if they're not already at a turning point, all this backlash whips them into one, because they desperately need it, for the platform, the community, and the staff's sake.

But at the same time, while I feel bad for the devs, I'm not going to start forgiving the decisions that have been made - and the complete lackthereof on the flipside - until concrete actions are put into place, even if it's not for a while. It might seem crass, but in my honest opinion, I can empathize with the devs and still hold Tapas' actions accountable. Just like how I can feel bad for someone but still have the expectation that they need to get their shit together if they want to continue a relationship. Because constantly forgiving and feeling sorry and not expecting better is how you end up with complacency and mistakes being repeated over and over and over again. It all goes back to what I mentioned above about our rights as users to decide whether or not its worth weathering the storm. Especially if that storm may never have a breaking point.

We'll see how the next few weeks go for sure :slight_frown:

And now we wait for the harvest....

I do hope the silence means they're working on a fix and not because something bad is going on.
I still believe in tapas and I hope it will once again become the amazing place for comics it used to be.

It's a learning curve, companies that rely on their audiance need to interact with them. I think Tapas thought this layout change was amazing and we'd all love it, so they didn't discuss it with us in order to surprise us.
However, things that change drastically aren't always welcomed, and big things should be discussed beforehand.

But from here on things can only improve, I wish the staff all the best and please stay safe.

Can't we just go back to the previous version?

I really miss it and this version is really tedious to navigate on a daily basis. It lack a lot of things and its so bland. if it wasn't for the author that are still there I would have been gone at least a week ago.

I feel less and less that I'll be able to stay on tapas any longer.

That would be great.
As the good old quote says 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'

And yes, I know many people abandoned tapas. I did too, however I keep checking back to see if there are any updates. I keep my hopes up. Tapas used to be amazing and I hope it can become amazing once again.
Until then, I'll be on webtoons ^^

You don't think that's been asked? When I did, this is all I got. It's not a answer that instills confidence that things will get better the quick, easy, and overall better way.

I do think it has already been ask if you look on the "first" top post of this very topic you'll see some of my answer. Rolling back have been asked from the very beginning. And I remember your message and its answer. But as some people said its been 3 week maybe it would be time to comment?

I've been the first I think to ask for the return of infinite scrolling. We've been told that "it will come", but when?

Even if I don't want to disrespect Tapas team, I feel like they are playing with us. They have answered our complaint 3 week ago and just after that they have started the waiting game to see when we will get tired of waiting for them doing something and finally abandon asking for things. Because they have all the card in hands. And us? We can't do anything. The only thing we can do is leave tapas for good. But they have all the traffic statistic they need and as long as their not a mass exodus of users (creator and reader) nothing will be done.

Well, from what I heard more and more users readers and creators alike are making a stand and leave until things get either back to what it was or the current layout fixed/improved.

It's not only the layout btw, the 24/h limit is gone (so the same popular comics hog the popular page 24/7) The same comics both free and premium get promoted very often. Hidden gems of comics/novels will stay hidden like this. And there's probably a lot more issues that makes it very hard for small/starting creators on tapas.

All we can do is wait and hope the staff will listen to us, and personally I hope that's what the silence means, so that the next time they answer us is with good news.

It's Saturday, the day when I usually read comics/novels when I could not do it before in the week.

I can't bring me to do it.
Because last week was so disagreeable. No matter how good and immersive the works are, if the immersion is broken when opening the page, when changing page, when liking, when commenting etc..., it's not a nice experience.

I never liked Tapas reading experience, mostly because long form comics (my favorite) are making my computer freeze, but now I feel like I was nitpicking. These were problems I could work around. I can't work around getting constantly disconnected from what I read. I'm going to keep trying, because I'm not ready to abandon the works I'm reading, but at this point, I know it's not a case of 'need more time to adapt'.
No (forseeable) time will make Latin script read from right to left. I don't get why don't they fix AT LEAST these arrows? It's such a small change and would bring a huge improvement.

Free comics used to have a spot on the popular page for 24h, if they didn't update a new page/episode after 24/h they got taken off the popular page.
Right now....that limit is gone. So what happens is; all the free comics that have many subs/views will stay at the top popular rows all the time.
I have a popular comic that hasn't been updated for 2 months because it's completed, and a few days ago I saw my comic still around the top rows on the popular page. This makes it hard for new/small comics to ever get there.
There are so many hidden gems of comics/novels out there but they stay hidden this way.

Premium comics never had the 24/h rule, which kinda makes sense since many of those comics don't update weekly, and cuz they're just premium.

Though I have no doubt that Tapas wants the best for its community, it's obvious that there's a lot of upper management/external say in how the site operates nowadays. Seeing as how LINE Webtoons is one of the leading websites in webcomic marketing at the moment, it's no surprise that potential investors and their own current investors coming into the new fiscal year (when investments for the year are renewed) would want to see Tapas try and compete with them in a way that might directly imply copying them entirely. Tapas is a small company still, especially compared to LINE, so finding investors to keep them afloat is key, especially if they want to continue expanding. And when you're that small of a company, not only are there potentially less investors to choose from who would be fine with putting their money into a small and indie market like webcomics, it also means you might end up having to just do "what's popular" instead of standing on your own merit - because doing the latter could mean investors not wanting to take a risk with you. If you can prove you're not a risk - by, say, mimicking other successful websites - you're more likely to get seed money.

It's admittedly the same reasons why SmackJeeves suddenly turned into a LINE Webtoons clone even after being one of the longest running webcomic platforms over the last two decades. Before its update, SJ was a relic of the early 2000's BBCode message board days, and while I can't say it couldn't use a few quality of life tweaks here and there, the new update was so off the mark that they shot themselves in the foot. It's obvious they got bought out or sold themselves to investors who wanted to see the same thing that even Tapastic is going through right now - a complete brand shift to hop on the LINE Webtoons bandwagon in the hopes of cashing in.

And you might say hey, why not just invest in LINE if you want LINE so bad? Because LINE and their webcomic platform is Korea (?) based. Tapas has its roots in the Korean market, but it's quickly becoming an America-recognized platform with their primary office now in the US. So that's the American market that they're trying to nab before LINE can swoop in and snatch up the entirety of it.

As much as I wish this could be the case, investors have already put their money into Tapas expecting them to make these changes to keep up with the market. Money's been sunk into it. At this point, the devs have very little say, and that includes Michael. Which is why we're seeing less communication between the staff and their audience as well - because they're obviously under legal oath to manage what level of transparency they have. Consider this a double answer to both your post as well as OBC's:

Now I'm not saying this is right. In my earlier post, I mentioned that this year, Tapas really should set their sights on getting a proper PR person to maintain their public image. Because right now, the biggest issue with the platform is their complete lack of transparency - the only time they're even meeting the bare minimum of communication is after they've fucked up and need to do damage control. A PR person and re-prioritizing what sort of platform they want to be will keep them from getting to that point where there even needs to be damage control, but they're never going to reach that point if they keep doing the same shit they're doing.

I think the best we can hope for is not a complete reversion to the old look, but perhaps steps that can be made to help it function and behave more like the old version without it being sunk cost. Because as I've said already, the biggest problem with this new update is the fact that it didn't seem to introduce new features, like companies would typically do this time of year when they're hunting for new investors and fighting to keep their current ones - it seemed to take away more than it presented, which is the complete opposite of what these updates are supposed to be for. As I've said, Tapas is a small company in a risky market, so they need to do more than most mainstream companies would have to do to keep and/or gain investors. Take Facebook, for example - they've grown into a multi-billion dollar company and a household name. If Facebook fucks up, we roll our eyes, but do we stop using Facebook? No, because Facebook is so ingrained into our culture now that it would take Mark Zuckerberg literally becoming Hitler to stop using it, and even then they would still be able to stay afloat.

In Tapas' case, this raises an important question - why is it that when they updated, they not only did the bare minimum of progressive innovation, but brought even less to the table than when they started? It's all obviously an effort to try and mimic what's successful but that's not what's going to set them apart and make them the better decision for investing in the long run. Short term, it works - long term, they're possibly doing themselves more harm than good.

Yup, and I don't think anyone should ever bar people from leaving the site either. As I've said it many times already, we as creators have the right to decide if we want to host our work here, to put our time and energy and labor into this platform. If we're not getting what we want out of it, whether its traffic or monetization or just plain enjoyment, then we have the right as creators to pull out at our own time.

In fact, that right to opt out from Tapas' platform is exactly why the Right of First Refusal TOS update was so controversial - because it planted the idea in people's heads that if they wanted to leave, they'd need Tapas' permission. This wasn't the case of course, ROFR is actually a very good tool for creators to have when contracting with websites like Tapas so that they can leverage more money to keep their comic on Tapas' platform (in the event that other platforms like LINE try to persuade a creator over to their platform). But it's a good tool for contracts. When it was put into the TOS, it created this blanket application to all users that implied their rights as creators were being taken away. And that was one of the first biggest turning points for the website when people would actually make a stand and leave - I know Anna Landin was one of many artists who left the platform as a result of that mess. And even though ROFR hasn't affected individual, non-contracted artists since then, the damage was already done and the message had been made perfectly clear to those who interpreted it as such - Tapas sometimes makes decisions without any communication that makes it so that we can't trust them as a company.

People have called me out before for calling that line of thinking - that Tapas doesn't actually care if you leave or that you shouldn't care about leaving them - 'toxic' or 'silly' but would you disagree with someone wanting to break up with their boyfriend just because they're unhappy? You shouldn't have to wait for shit to keep getting worse and worse to leave. If you just don't feel like your place is here, that's your right as a creator and user. I'm not encouraging people to leave, I'm just reminding them that they don't need to be clinging to some imaginary relationship with a website that may or may not be giving them anything in return.

Just because we aren't paid on contract by the website doesn't mean we can't expect better. In fact, as creators who provide their work en masse, hundreds upon hundreds of episodes spanning genres and years of work, all for free, we have just as much, if not more leverage to demand a better platform than those who are paid to be here. Because we're not paid to be here - and yet many of us are still here providing our work and in turn, our labor, not to mention free advertising for the website every time we share our comic to direct readers from external platforms. Every time you post your link to reddit, or to Facebook, or Instagram, etc. you're doing free advertising for Tapas, and in return, they allow us to host on our platform - but even that's barely worth it at this point with such a poorly developed backend that's massively affecting our frontend. Besides, Tapastic isn't the only webcomic hosting platform. So a basic "we provide you the platform" just isn't great leverage to debate as to whether or not we have the right to demand better. There are others out there that will bring you, at the very least, more fulfillment to post to if Tapas isn't giving you that anymore. The decision about whether or not to leave or weather the storm though? That's yours. Don't let anyone convince you it's not.

I tried to figure out what comic you draw and couldn't find it, but if you do manage a popular/mainstream comic as you say (and I'm not accusing you of lying, I just can't find your work xD) then I'm really humbled to see this point of view. It's not one of arrogance or privilege, it's one of genuine empathy and concern.

Like people think every time I or anyone else here call out the Premium creators, it's hate at them. And while they've definitely been through their fair share of crap and are justified in feeling outcast simply due to their success, we all need to recognize it's not hate for the creators or their work, it's just rejection of a system that's obviously biased and doesn't benefit anyone who's working just as hard - if not harder - to bring their free to read content to this platform with barely anything in return.

And yet I keep seeing Premium creators stepping forward with things like "well stop hating on us, Tapas is a business, they need to promote their Premiums to make money!!" Like okay. But - and this is a VERY hot take so I apologize if this is over the line - leave it to the privileged ones who are benefiting from the company's decisions to obviously be the first to stand up for them. Of course Premium creators are going to defend the system and how it's built - it's because they're not dealing with the actual drawbacks of using the site when you're not being paid to be there. It's sort of hard to take these opinions as genuine or valid when they're making even just a semblance of a living off their work and are constantly being carried on Tapas' shoulders above the rest. Yes, many Premium or otherwise 'mainstream' creators started as free to read creators and worked hard to get there - but now as a result they're in a biased position as a result of Tapas' own system that benefits them at every turn, whether it's through monetization or just constant promotion and traffic. Especially with the current lack of the 24/7 timer system. You can't look at a building that's caught fire and say "the building's on fire but why are you complaining? Just get out of there or stop bellyaching," when you've already been rescued by the first responders and those still trapped inside lack the ability to escape on their own.

I'm not denying that Tapas needs to make money. But they're forgetting the thousands of comics and creators that got them to this point, that filled their library with so many popular works (some that mirrored here - ex. GamerCAT brought them HEAPS of traffic back in 2012/13, hell, it's literally how I found Tapastic.)

So for any Premium creators or otherwise mainstream artists, please don't feel like we're calling you out for being successful. There are plenty of successful comic artists out there who we love dearly and would never imagine being assholes to (Katie Tiedrich and Samantha Whitten are both angels and I will protect them at all costs >:OOO). Some of us are just poorly projecting our feelings onto you when really, we should be pointing fingers at Tapas for creating this obviously biased system that favors the mainstream and disadvantages those who could just as well be the next 'mainstream', if they were just given the chance.

I'm only calling you out recognizing the obvious advantages you have and why it doesn't look good when you say "it's not that bad" or we're "overreacting" because you're just not existing in the same context of the website as we are anymore. And that's not your fault - it's on Tapas, who have created this ecosystem where if you're not mainstream either due to being popular once 4 years ago, having your comics meme'd on Twitter with every new episode, or following the status quo by hopping on whatever genre and/or storytelling conventions everyone else is doing, you're going to intentionally be pushed down to the bottom of the bin. And then they blame it on the algorithm. You created the algorithm, Tapas. You can't express empathy to those being beat down by it if you don't actually do what you can to fix it.

Tapas just needs to quit it with the plausible deniability and pretending that they can't fix this problem that they've intentionally created over the last 4+ years. They gotta take more responsibility than that.

In the meantime, though, all we can do is make our own decisions about our futures here, and figure out if a future here even exists. I'm not gonna chastise anyone for their decision no matter what you do, because at the end of the day, it's your decision, and you're the only one who's going to live by it. It's not going to affect me in any way, and you don't need to feel guilty about it affecting Tapas - because they've proven time and time again that they barely bat an eye at whether or not their decisions will affect us.

It has 71k subs, it's further down at this point, for which I'm glad (as weird as that may sound) but a few days ago I found it on the 7th row for free comics (I remember it cuz I discussed about it with someone on discord) so personally I just don't like this 24/h removal because comics like mine take up those spots even if it's not been updated in 2 months while a new comic gem is stuggling to climb up in those ranks.

Hmm...I would think the hate premium comics get will lessen now that free and premium content can be split, which was a good move. imo the advertisment is fine, sure there's a lot, but they don't advertise in the notifications often.
On the site you can now pretty much avoid all premium content by making your tapas bookmark this for example; https://tapas.io/comics?b=POPULAR&g=&f=F2R3

Yeah, that definitely helps! They've made strides with it but there are still things that need to be fixed, such as the 24/h removal.

That being said though, I'd like to point out that it's not solely "Premium" by the technical definition, despite my wording in places lol I'm also referring to 'mainstream' which can also include free to read comics. As I've mentioned before, Sarah's Scribbles, Rock & Riot, theodds1out, etc. are all very popular comics and are also free-to-read. But they've got plenty of subscribers and influence as it is (and in Rock & Riot's case, it hasn't updated in three years), so why do we see them getting promoted in every genre-based Trending tab on the landing pages for comics that are nowhere near those numbers? (in the case of those three comics, the Comedy genre specifically, which is one of the more competitive genres).

As someone else here stated once a while back, it feels very much like the website is going "Hey why waste your time reading this, look at THESE comics instead". If they're going to make a series landing Trending tab, make it varied and perhaps set it to the same metrics as the comic being read so that it continues to vary as the comic itself gains more subs or grows a bigger community. That way other comics in that same genre have a better chance of getting seen, and the comics that are already constantly dominating the top rows in the Popular section and the front page of the website don't get yet another avenue for promotion, and one so small, specific, and not even guaranteed to show up (if you have multiple series) that they really don't need it the way someone with a new series or fewer subs might.

And again, that's assuming the Trending tab even shows up. If someone has multiple series - something that's completely out of our control as creators who may be trying to get our work out there - then that avenue is gone. And as I mentioned in my big conspiracy post from a couple nights ago, the majority of free to read creators have multiple series. So this almost intentionally disenfranchises the smaller free to read comics that don't have the advantage of dominating the front page every single day even more.

So in addition to the Trending tab needing to not be so biased towards comics that are already getting that front page/Popular section exposure constantly (or were popular 5 years ago and have literally not updated since), they need to either make it accessible to everyone regardless of whether they have multiple series, or not at all. It just seems foolhardy to have it only appear for some people and not others depending on something so mundane as whether or not they have more than one series - and then when it does, it's the same shit you just saw 30 seconds ago on the front page or Popular section.


On another semi-related note, I know people are discouraged right now that they're not hearing back from Tapas at the moment, but let's please remember that it's Saturday. So we'll probably not hear anything official until Monday. I know it's hard because they've been largely silent even up until now regarding a lot of issues, but let's all hang in there :heart: And remember, whatever you decide to do for your future is your decision. Recognize it, own it, and learn from it, for better or for worse :heart:

The conspiracy theories here are making me really uncomfortable. There’s so much baseless speculation. We’re in the middle of a global pandemic, and the site redesign is less than a month old. The Bay Area is in lockdown, so I’m sure the Tapas team are all doing their best while still trying to obey social distancing procedures. Like, I get coming here to offer feedback or report a bug, but do we have to speculate on this reason or that reason or investors etc? Because it’s all stuff we know nothing about anyway, real talk, and it’s a bad look as well to be bitching about, idk, Tencent, when we have no idea if investors had anything to do with it or what Tapas’ reasons were for the redesign.

Well.. Part of me agrees. But this is what happens when you make a decision that has impact on people without telling them why.
Imagine this corona world lockdown. Without telling why? We try to accept the world pandemic because we understand the why.

Even that Tapas is not bound to say. There is just a huge WHY

Edit: There was a big why we should make new covers. And we embraced that part. But no warning or why at this.

And we still need to know how Ink works? There is still a big why

No offence but this isn’t the coronavirus lockdown. That was a needlessly overblown comparison. I get feeling strongly about something but please keep some perspective.

Ya, that might be a bit over the top.
But point is that I believe it is in human nature to always seek the why. And when that is not accessible the human nature starts to guess.

But I do think that we are going nowhere and this is only starting to hurting us all now.

It is as you said. Uncomfortable