What are the limitations of the comic medium, and how do you get around them?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I guess the ones you notice the most will depend on what genres you work in...I gravitate to action, so what bugs me the most is that I can never convey motion the way I want.

If you have a super flamboyant or expressive character, it's fine. Just single frames with the right poses will get the message across of how they move. But more subtle movements often just...disappear.

How do you show that someone has very precise, robotic movements, for instance? You can keep their gestures tight, but apart from that...? Like, it's not really possible to show that unnaturally stiff motion from point A to point B, unless you take the time out to do a set of frame-by-frame panels...but then, that wouldn't be subtle anymore, would it? And in many cases, the implied time delay that comes with having multiple panels for one scene would ruin the illusion of motion, so there wouldn't be any point.

Man...if only I didn't hate animating so much, I would be an animator...I guess 'animation director' would be an ideal job for me, if anyone would ever allow me into that position. ^^; I really like designing motion for people and things, and even doing frame-by-frame planning (most of my animation projects start and end with frame-by-frame planning...). I just can't stand doing the grunt work necessary for a finished product. :T

[Iris-Grimoire]

Remember that it doesn't stop at the character's own layers; you're working for an entire frame and on top of that the comic page as a whole. Play with gutters, the composition on the piece, or break apart that movement with the characters around that person noticing how oddly they move.

For example, the hardest thing to show in my comic are gestures to cast spells because they'd take up two or more pages if I went frame by frame - instead, I use afterimages to quickly show the movement and make them tiny frames with equally thin gutter to show it's happening in seconds at most. They don't need background because that's for the estabilishing shot or when the impact of a spell or attack actually happens(which ideally is right above or below), so I removed everything but the movement I want the reader to see.

[DrNightPhlox]

I agree that motion is probably one of the hardest parts, especially when it comes to action. Comic art is truly different from animation in many ways and motion is a big one. Depending on what kinds of characters you have, you can show off subtle movements in many ways. Posture is one of the biggest ways. On some level you'll have to trust the audience to understand from the posture and attitude of your character that the movements are more subtle but you can accentuate that by also having characters with more exaggerated movements to show the difference. Give them more open body language, give their clothes more movement, make longer motion lines, more flamboyant posture. You can also bring attention to small tells about the characters subtle movements like hand twitches and glances while making sure to show the distance the character has moved without them looking like they're spending the kind of energy you would normally spend doing that. For instance, two characters are running, one with their limbs all spread out and panting and the other breathing lightly with no sweat and their hands in their pockets but they are moving just as fast which you can show with placement and motion lines. You can exaggerate it even more by making a character that looks less subtle having to stop for them.

[AVXP]

How do you show that someone has very precise, robotic movements, for instance?

It's the frame you choose to capture. Stiff should be expressed by limited movements so that character is never pushing their limbs to any limits. All of their poses should be close to 'zero'. Like how do you show small steps? The feet are closer together...always. A limited range of motion is the definition of stiff and robotic. Ever see someone popping or doing the robot? Stick to precise degrees...everything 45 or 90 degrees. Move/bend less joints.

I don't know if comics have any limitations.
I'm trying to think of some...
Like, what can you NOT convey in a comic?

What I do notice is that comics are both image and text. Some artists choose to not use text and try to illustrate everything.
That OR spend their time struggling to convey unimportant gestures - especially sentiments that can be captured in numerous, other ways.

[Iris-Grimoire]

You can convey anything, the problem is that comics take a lot of time by nature, AND the patience of your reader is short by nature. Taking too many frames to convey an action not only slows down the pace and takes forever to finish compared to a "shortcut" to the action, it's very possible your audience will get bored. A lot of comic artists stress that you need to not think of it as either animation or a book - not endless dialogue, not a storyboard, you want the perfect middle between them.

[dawgofdawgness]

Hoo boy this is a reaaaaaally complex question lol. I think one of the biggest disadvantages is how you can't incorporate sound into comics, like, ever. Sometimes a particular emotion/action is just IMPOSSIBLE to convey without sound, like laughter or crying (or PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT. I don't know why I thought it'd be a good idea to make my comic about jazz lol). You can write "snort chuckle haha that's too funny!!" But it'll just never sound genuine and can totally take from what would otherwise me an emotional scene. That, and the lack of music.

[Rasp]

I second this, comics about music or musicians often struggle because you cant hear any of their work. You might be able to pull it off a little if its based on an actual band and their songs are well known but the moment someone has to tab away to look up a song on youtube something has gone wrong.

[JRHoch]

Motion is difficult and a lot of artists employ the technique of inserting words such as "lift," "shrug," "nod," etc., which I think is pretty lame.

The hardest part, for me, is creating real depth of character--and many people don't even try. They're happy to focus on action elements or using chibis constantly to portray emotion in the most broad and cliche way.

[AVXP]

I think one of the biggest disadvantages is how you can't incorporate sound into comics, like, ever.

You also can't show images in a song.
So what? Same difference. You're now playing against the strength of a medium and trying to infer that certain emotions must only be conveyed a certain way. Not true.

For the literal, you can actually show notes on a fret board if some kind of exact melody is ultra important.
But the concept of a Jazz song is easy to show using images. Blue colors, the angles and curves of the artwork etc.
If you get completely lost as to what I'm saying, look at the flyer to a Rock concert, Jazz event and Classical recital.
Just the art and fonts let you know the tone of the event.

Sound is handled perfectly well in comics. BAM POW BANG!'
And just like songs that insert images into your mind, books that insert images into your mind, comics do the same and it's based on the imagination of the reader/watcher/audience.

If their imagination or experience is limited, then yeah, you need to be more specific and explicit.
That goes for all mediums.

[ButterflyEmpress]

I totally agree! Sometimes writing out sound effects can feel campy or silly too. I purposefully leave them out to not ruin the atmosphere(although you're not really supposed to do that).

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Sound is handled perfectly well in comics. BAM POW BANG!'And just like songs that insert images into your mind, books that insert images into your mind, comics do the same and it's based on the imagination of the reader/watcher/audience.

Yeah, but not everyone is satisfied with 'BAM POW BANG'. Maybe someone wants to portray sounds that are more subtle, like someone slowly removing a sticker from a suitcase, or the fuzzy tone of an amateur saxophone player whose embouchure isn't quite right yet. Sometimes just throwing in weird letters and relying on the reader's imagination doesn't always result in the effect you want.

That's the point of this topic: for people to share things that are difficult for them to do in comics. Not for other people to 'prove' that their struggles are invalid.

[AVXP]

If you noticed the quote, it says like ever. I didn't respond to "It's difficult to illustrate sounds in comics and here is how I get around the limitation(s) of the comic medium by doing....THIS.

I responded to an absolute and you are here responding with your preferences, or imaginary preferences of a reader you guess might exist.

And further, if you read my answer and understand it, I also gave suggestions for how to get around the "limitations".
I'm actually doing more to respond to your OP that most in this thread.

Not for other people to 'prove' that their struggles are invalid.

I responded to an absolute of what can and can't be done, not how hard it is.
You title is about the Comic Medium.
Not the struggle of an artist.
Like always, rename your thread if you're so bent on limiting the conversation to your own experiences.
I'll help.

Hey guys, what do you struggle to convey in comics?
Here's my story, please share yours.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I responded to an absolute and you are here responding with your preferences, or imaginary preferences of a reader you guess might exist.

I don't really know what you mean by 'responding to an absolute', but I'll just say that 'sound is handled perfectly well' is an opinion statement, which was probably founded on the fact that your preferences and needs have been met.

I was merely pointing out that other people have other preferences and needs.

You title is about the Comic Medium.
Not the struggle of an artist.
Like always, rename your thread if you're so bent on limiting the conversation to your own experiences.I'll help.

Hey guys, what do you struggle to convey in comics?
Here's my story, please share yours.

I see your point, but did it ever occur to you that you missed a subtlety in the title?

The "how do you get around them" part was not meant to be read as "how does ONE get around them". That was a literal "you", which was meant to invite individual experiences, not generalized explanations.

Besides, I assumed that people's struggles would REFLECT the limitations of the Comic medium, making them related concepts. I mean, the only other assumption to make is that those of us who are complaining are just incompetent, and I don't believe that.

Furthermore, I'm NOT trying to "limit the conversation to my own experiences", yet AGAIN (I think you're Accuser #3...my, they're piling up). If there's anything anyone here is bent on, I think it's explaining away people's individual perspectives, which you seem to have a bad habit of doing.

Maybe you don't realize it, but "It's possible to portray sound in comics" is not a sensible reply to "these sounds are hard to portray in comics". Believe it or not, letting people know how possible things are doesn't actually solve much of anything. We KNOW it's possible. There's more to it than that.

In short, you sound like you're either not paying attention or simply dismissing people's problems.

[AVXP]

Besides, I assumed that people's struggles would REFLECT the limitations of the Comic medium, making them related concepts. I mean, the only other assumption to make is that those of us who are complaining are just incompetent, and I don't believe that.

Are you now giving me an absolute choice, like it's either I am agreeing with your assumptions or I am insulting the other posters? For a guy who is just spent a paragraph explaining all the different and subtle ways what you posted could be taken, you certainly seem resistant to offering the same courtesy.

In short, you sound like you're either not paying attention or simply dismissing people's problems.

If you're bothered by assumptions and non-assumptions, maybe stop from doing the same.
Want to know what I think....ask. It's that simple.

[beta1042]

I actually think the written action sfx can be hilarious especially if the scene itself is comedy. Or at least that's why I do it I can't be alone since my readers tend to comment on how funny it is to see sfx like "running noises"

Sometimes I also add things like "shove" "push" "nod" etc because the actual sfx helps draw the reader's eyes to the motion, because it's a motion I don't want them to miss.

I do think a lot of subtle movements can be shown with 1 or 2 small slight action/movement line. I tend to use these when showing a waving hand, or a turning head/turning body, etc.

[JRHoch]

In something lighter in tone, it might work, if not overused--but I think it's still a shortcut and more of a manga-anime thing. You don't see it almost at all in Western comics. I'm a bit of a purist!

Edit: On a side note, the biggest limitation in comics is how long it takes to correct something. In a novel, you can delete a few words, put in some new ones, and in seconds you've fixed a scene. Not so in a comic.

[sekabead]

Anything involves other than eyes to sense will apply and comic artists are forced to do workaround. Sound, smell, taste, temperature, etc. And comics itself can be thought of "a movie with only 1 or 2 frame per minute". That's simplification, but you know what I mean. Anything involves timing will be indeed a challenge. Motion, visual effects animation, precise timing, etc.

[Jenny-Toons]

Sometimes, movement can be hard to convey, and you don't always want to do "Moment to Moment" panels (showing down the movement). A lot of what I do to get around that comes from Scott McCloud's Making Comics. Used to read the book religiously as a kid, and I think it's one of the bigger reasons I got better. Couldn't find an image of what he talked about, but someone else made an article based on his work:

Transitions!

I also like to work with word and pictures -- especially when I'm trying to improve pacing. Scott definitely showed that here:

And I do the same with my own work. By using speech to move around the room, I am able to make time move faster and not have to visually people talking. Instead, I can use fewer panels to suggest background, mood, etc:

[skicoak]

Mostly what is being referred to "limitations" here are a list of things that some individuals don't like the already established comic shorthand for. And it's okay to want to push the medium more... But that doesn't mean the masters of the medium haven't given us the tools already.

How do you show that someone has very precise, robotic movements, for instance?

The forefathers of the form have given you options. Kirby showed rigidity by contrasting it to the large fluid motions of every one else involved. Ditko would increase the panel count for actions that required reader attention, and let larger mundane events occur in the gutters. Steranko (and current master David Aja) would use panel layouts that differed from the normal structures to highlight unusual types of action/movements. Chris Ware has done the same thing across entire books.

Like @AVXP is saying, it's not really a limitation of the medium because the medium has given you lots of answers. It's a more an individual dissatisfaction with the approaches you've tried.

The same occurs when people grow dissatisfied with sound effects, speed lines, thought gallons, gutter and so...they're not the medium, they are the short hands and work around of the medium.

And if you're REALLY showing frustration that a static image can't replicate actual physical motion... Then imagine my frustration that I can't smell what they're cooking on the Food Network. My TV and it's stupid limitations !

[Resilo]

This makes me think about the whole how does king crimson work thing before we had the anime to explain.