What are the limitations of the comic medium, and how do you get around them?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Sound is handled perfectly well in comics. BAM POW BANG!'And just like songs that insert images into your mind, books that insert images into your mind, comics do the same and it's based on the imagination of the reader/watcher/audience.

Yeah, but not everyone is satisfied with 'BAM POW BANG'. Maybe someone wants to portray sounds that are more subtle, like someone slowly removing a sticker from a suitcase, or the fuzzy tone of an amateur saxophone player whose embouchure isn't quite right yet. Sometimes just throwing in weird letters and relying on the reader's imagination doesn't always result in the effect you want.

That's the point of this topic: for people to share things that are difficult for them to do in comics. Not for other people to 'prove' that their struggles are invalid.

[AVXP]

If you noticed the quote, it says like ever. I didn't respond to "It's difficult to illustrate sounds in comics and here is how I get around the limitation(s) of the comic medium by doing....THIS.

I responded to an absolute and you are here responding with your preferences, or imaginary preferences of a reader you guess might exist.

And further, if you read my answer and understand it, I also gave suggestions for how to get around the "limitations".
I'm actually doing more to respond to your OP that most in this thread.

Not for other people to 'prove' that their struggles are invalid.

I responded to an absolute of what can and can't be done, not how hard it is.
You title is about the Comic Medium.
Not the struggle of an artist.
Like always, rename your thread if you're so bent on limiting the conversation to your own experiences.
I'll help.

Hey guys, what do you struggle to convey in comics?
Here's my story, please share yours.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I responded to an absolute and you are here responding with your preferences, or imaginary preferences of a reader you guess might exist.

I don't really know what you mean by 'responding to an absolute', but I'll just say that 'sound is handled perfectly well' is an opinion statement, which was probably founded on the fact that your preferences and needs have been met.

I was merely pointing out that other people have other preferences and needs.

You title is about the Comic Medium.
Not the struggle of an artist.
Like always, rename your thread if you're so bent on limiting the conversation to your own experiences.I'll help.

Hey guys, what do you struggle to convey in comics?
Here's my story, please share yours.

I see your point, but did it ever occur to you that you missed a subtlety in the title?

The "how do you get around them" part was not meant to be read as "how does ONE get around them". That was a literal "you", which was meant to invite individual experiences, not generalized explanations.

Besides, I assumed that people's struggles would REFLECT the limitations of the Comic medium, making them related concepts. I mean, the only other assumption to make is that those of us who are complaining are just incompetent, and I don't believe that.

Furthermore, I'm NOT trying to "limit the conversation to my own experiences", yet AGAIN (I think you're Accuser #3...my, they're piling up). If there's anything anyone here is bent on, I think it's explaining away people's individual perspectives, which you seem to have a bad habit of doing.

Maybe you don't realize it, but "It's possible to portray sound in comics" is not a sensible reply to "these sounds are hard to portray in comics". Believe it or not, letting people know how possible things are doesn't actually solve much of anything. We KNOW it's possible. There's more to it than that.

In short, you sound like you're either not paying attention or simply dismissing people's problems.

[AVXP]

Besides, I assumed that people's struggles would REFLECT the limitations of the Comic medium, making them related concepts. I mean, the only other assumption to make is that those of us who are complaining are just incompetent, and I don't believe that.

Are you now giving me an absolute choice, like it's either I am agreeing with your assumptions or I am insulting the other posters? For a guy who is just spent a paragraph explaining all the different and subtle ways what you posted could be taken, you certainly seem resistant to offering the same courtesy.

In short, you sound like you're either not paying attention or simply dismissing people's problems.

If you're bothered by assumptions and non-assumptions, maybe stop from doing the same.
Want to know what I think....ask. It's that simple.

[beta1042]

I actually think the written action sfx can be hilarious especially if the scene itself is comedy. Or at least that's why I do it I can't be alone since my readers tend to comment on how funny it is to see sfx like "running noises"

Sometimes I also add things like "shove" "push" "nod" etc because the actual sfx helps draw the reader's eyes to the motion, because it's a motion I don't want them to miss.

I do think a lot of subtle movements can be shown with 1 or 2 small slight action/movement line. I tend to use these when showing a waving hand, or a turning head/turning body, etc.

[JRHoch]

In something lighter in tone, it might work, if not overused--but I think it's still a shortcut and more of a manga-anime thing. You don't see it almost at all in Western comics. I'm a bit of a purist!

Edit: On a side note, the biggest limitation in comics is how long it takes to correct something. In a novel, you can delete a few words, put in some new ones, and in seconds you've fixed a scene. Not so in a comic.

[sekabead]

Anything involves other than eyes to sense will apply and comic artists are forced to do workaround. Sound, smell, taste, temperature, etc. And comics itself can be thought of "a movie with only 1 or 2 frame per minute". That's simplification, but you know what I mean. Anything involves timing will be indeed a challenge. Motion, visual effects animation, precise timing, etc.

[Jenny-Toons]

Sometimes, movement can be hard to convey, and you don't always want to do "Moment to Moment" panels (showing down the movement). A lot of what I do to get around that comes from Scott McCloud's Making Comics. Used to read the book religiously as a kid, and I think it's one of the bigger reasons I got better. Couldn't find an image of what he talked about, but someone else made an article based on his work:

Transitions!

I also like to work with word and pictures -- especially when I'm trying to improve pacing. Scott definitely showed that here:

And I do the same with my own work. By using speech to move around the room, I am able to make time move faster and not have to visually people talking. Instead, I can use fewer panels to suggest background, mood, etc:

[skicoak]

Mostly what is being referred to "limitations" here are a list of things that some individuals don't like the already established comic shorthand for. And it's okay to want to push the medium more... But that doesn't mean the masters of the medium haven't given us the tools already.

How do you show that someone has very precise, robotic movements, for instance?

The forefathers of the form have given you options. Kirby showed rigidity by contrasting it to the large fluid motions of every one else involved. Ditko would increase the panel count for actions that required reader attention, and let larger mundane events occur in the gutters. Steranko (and current master David Aja) would use panel layouts that differed from the normal structures to highlight unusual types of action/movements. Chris Ware has done the same thing across entire books.

Like @AVXP is saying, it's not really a limitation of the medium because the medium has given you lots of answers. It's a more an individual dissatisfaction with the approaches you've tried.

The same occurs when people grow dissatisfied with sound effects, speed lines, thought gallons, gutter and so...they're not the medium, they are the short hands and work around of the medium.

And if you're REALLY showing frustration that a static image can't replicate actual physical motion... Then imagine my frustration that I can't smell what they're cooking on the Food Network. My TV and it's stupid limitations !

[Resilo]

This makes me think about the whole how does king crimson work thing before we had the anime to explain.

[rajillustration]

I mean since webcomics started, people have been animating frames in their comics and using sound. I remember a lot of people playing around with parallax scrolling and comics about 10 years ago. It can be real fun. And while 2d printed comics have their limitations, you still get some people who implement a flip-book type actions to mimic animation (like hugo cabret--which is categorized as a children's book but is a lot closer to a comic IMO) For me, the limitation doesn't come from the medium itself, but instead where I choose to host it, and the audience I'm hosting it to. Tapas and Webtoons set my formatting for me and doesn't allow me to really put any scripting on the page to allow for an immersive experience. And, there's certain genre expectations from my readers which would influence any other comics I'd put on here. Working around that...that's the trickiest part for me.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Are you now giving me an absolute choice, like it's either I am agreeing with your assumptions or I am insulting the other posters? For a guy who is just spent a paragraph explaining all the different and subtle ways what you posted could be taken, you certainly seem resistant to offering the same courtesy.

(a) I only listed one 'subtlety' in my words that I might actually blame you for not taking into account. Just one.
(b) It's true though, isn't it? If someone complains that they can't do something, at the end of the day, it's either their fault or the fault of the circumstances. Either you can't build a tower because the tower is impossible to build, or there's something about building towers that you still aren't capable of doing.

If you're bothered by assumptions and non-assumptions, maybe stop from doing the same.Want to know what I think....ask. It's that simple.

I thought explaining what you were thinking was what you were doing this whole time...that's what I've been doing. '_' But if you haven't yet, the floor is yours.
I was just giving my opinion on what it looks like, so that you know. A lot of arguments boil down to simply not knowing how your behavior is perceived by others.

And if you're REALLY showing frustration that a static image can't replicate actual physical motion... Then imagine my frustration that I can't smell what they're cooking on the Food Network. My TV and it's stupid limitations !

But...isn't that still a limitation? It's not the fault of TV or Food Network or the concept of video as a whole, but it's still something that cannot be done. It's like...the ability to leap off a 20-foot building and land with my skeleton intact. Sure, maybe my body shouldn't be able to do that in the first place, but does that mean it's no longer a limitation?

I'm kinda starting to feel like maybe I phrased the title incorrectly...I knew it sounded too much like an essay prompt...but in case anyone is still reading anything I write (unlikely at this point) I'd like to try to clarify what I was complaining about:

It's not the mere concept of rigid motion that I have deluded myself into thinking is impossible to portray. I know there are ways and forms of rigidity that have been shown in comics before...I was just thinking of one specific thing: a rigid walk cycle.

I was thinking about one of my characters (who happens to be a maid robot), and I imagined this cute little walk that they would do with a lot of tiny, quick steps. It would be fairly easy to animate (I might even be able to do it without losing the will to live), but for the life of me I can't see any way to replicate the effect in static media, especially considering that their little maid dress covers most of their legs. Like, no matter how I try to envision drawing it out, something is lost. And I was just like..."damn."

Maybe I should have literally just asked for help with that instead of making generalizations (never in my life have I seen so many unfortunately unhelpful suggestions)...but I feel like the points I made still stand. Although if anyone can destroy them completely and say "Um, you could just do it like this" I welcome it. ^^;

[AVXP]

I'm kinda starting to feel like maybe I phrased the title incorrectly..

Maybe I should have literally just asked for help with that instead of making generalizations

Looks like you're slowly coming around.

[pencilinpain]

See, this is the best I can come out with, but I don't think you can do this kind of thing through an entire story. I don't think this is practical

Other than that, my suggestion remains the same: if you can't convey a particular idea with your visuals, then you need to find some workaround using plot or writing. And hopefully make it interesting somehow.

I mean, show, don't tell, but when you can't show, that's when you tell.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Looks like you're slowly coming around.

Thanks so much for making that comment. There's literally nothing better than admitting that you might not be right about everything, and hearing someone else twist that into an admission that you've accepted their point of view, even when those are two completely different things.

I mean, show, don't tell, but when you can't show, that's when you tell.

...Or leave it out entirely? I'd really rather do that than have some other character start making fun of the way she walks, for instance (especially when it can't be made clear that it's supposed to be visually abnormal...). I mean, when something really isn't that important to the story, sometimes you just gotta leave it on the cutting room floor... =/

[Iris-Grimoire]

Telling doesn't always mean words, though. You can make a small side panel of a character raising an eyebrow at her; the reader might not pick it up but someone who's devouring page by page might go "huh, I wonder why they're weirded out, she didn't say anything".

[AVXP]

What I do notice is that comics are both image and text. Some artists choose to not use text and try to illustrate everything.That OR spend their time struggling to convey unimportant gestures - especially sentiments that can be captured in numerous, other ways.

...Or leave it out entirely? I'd really rather do that than have some other character start making fun of the way she walks, for instance (especially when it can't be made clear that it's supposed to be visually abnormal...). I mean, when something really isn't that important to the story, sometimes you just gotta leave it on the cutting room floor... =/

A lot of arguments boil down to simply not knowing how your behavior is perceived by others.

Then maybe don't turn the point of agreeing as an attack or thing to be offended about.
The choice is yours.

---

But back on topic......

I think a limitation of the [story-driven] webcomic is losing control of the size of your art/pages.
Since it's now controlled by the device or monitor or resolution or reader preference or even the hosting site's design.
There really isn't a consensus on whether a page is a page or a page is a panel.

Sometimes there's so much scrolling it interrupts the flow of the reading experience.
Other times, it feels like the creator is counting pages and willing to drop a bunch of blank/black pages for an effect that was done in a few panels before, but now is strictly a side effect of the 'pages are free' format.

I also find the weekly format to be a thing of pressure and not very useful for long, as in once a month or two goes by, it almost doesn't matter as readers are now just reading your work like any other digital comic.

To get around these things, I've pretty much NOT embraced the normal conventions and create my work at my normal pacing and used the weekly thing as a release schedule and NOT a production schedule. Meaning, the book/issue is fully done before I start dripping pages.

I also make pages as the size I prefer and shrink them to 'page-at-a-time' bites and won't reformat for vertical or horizontal scrolling websites and break my work down to just its panels.

So I'm still looking for something that I can take advantage of in the webcomic format- over the general digital format.
They've added a lot of bells and whistles to the PDF format, but I'm not fully sold on that either.

[pencilinpain]

...Or leave it out entirely? I'd really rather do that than have some other character start making fun of the way she walks, for instance (especially when it can't be made clear that it's supposed to be visually abnormal...).

Maybe? At the end of the day you know your story better than anybody else and only you decide about it. But I wouldn't like to see you give up so quickly. Actually I think this is an interesting challenge you brought up.

Someone making fun of her is pretty rough. But interaction with other characters is something you can explore. Consider something like:

—Why are you shaking?
—I'm not. It's just the way I move.
—Like a ticking clock?
—Precisely.

And then if you could find the tiniest visual hint to go along that exchange, that'd be...well, better than leaving it out entirely, I'd say.

[IndigoShirtProd]

That's not @AVXP's quote. @DokiDokiTsuna said that first. Don't know why she jumped to that conclusion in the first place. And I do agree with you, a character could point out the rigidity of the robot's walk without making fun of it.

I think a lot of the limits of comics are things people are okay with being limited, specifically with printed comics. If you wanted better movement or the implementation of sound, you'd make an animation. The medium itself has flaws that keep people from being more immersed in stories, but so do all media. There are things that are limiting in traditional art and not in digital art. There are things that are only passable in books that a movie couldn't hope to replicate. There are ways to get around the limitations, but at what point do those choices change what the medium is entirely? Giving advice and presenting arguments about the faults in the comic medium is fine and good. Getting riled up over the semantics is a bit. . . how do you say. . . childish

[sssfrs]

Cartooning can do pretty much everything animation can do, I think, but you have to be more strategic about what you show to get across your idea. It's like if you're animating but instead of 20 frames a second you get 3 frames. You can slow down the pace of a comic by showing more panels for the same movement, and showing fewer panels to depict a sequence makes that sequence faster. Depicting subtlety is about deciding what the most important piece of an action is and showing that. You can always add more frames to show more detail and those read kind of like a slow-motion close up shot