Sep 2017
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Kaykeactual fraggle
Sep '17

I think this is a cool idea. If I can participate or not depends on where I am in terms of my work load when the project starts. Right now, I wouldn't have time... but in a few months when I don't have any pressing deadlines, I'd be open to it if anyone was interested in learning from me.

I've been trying to think about things with my practicality-glasses on, and I think keeping the first round limited might be a good idea. If there were... I'm going to go with a range of 2-5 mentors interested in participating since that feels like a manageable number for a test. Each mentor could fill out a short questionnaire about their genre, experience, tools, skills, schedule, etc to give the potential apprentices an idea of what sort of lessons they had to offer. Then the people applying could choose the mentor they'd be interested in working with and fill out a questionnaire about themselves and the things they're looking to learn or improve upon. Then the chosen applicant could work with the mentor to set specific goals for whatever time limit ends up being set.

I think this idea has potential, but it is deffo gonna be a lot of work to organize.

kip
Sep '17

That also raises questions as to who will be accepted to be a mentor and who will be accepted to be a trainee. Mentors may have to be filtered, but will Trainees be as well? Will there be global requirements, or will they be handpicked?

IdiotWithPencil
Sep '17

I think both should be filter, mentoring needs not only experience but being able to teach in an effective and concise way, that ain't something you can learn on the fly =/, and trainee should be people who at the very least have some kind of future worth,E.I they already show some promise in drawing and or storytelling they just need to grow more, so the platform can get some premium content, it's like a job if you pass the interview they will train you for 3 month and then you work for them the most effective way possible

or at least that's what I think would happen don't know XD

kip
Sep '17

Yeah, that makes sense! I was also thinking it may be troublesome if a trainee was already a petty high level, it might be difficult to find a suitable mentor (moreso as it’s a fairly hobby-like environment!)

Aspie_Gamer
Sep '17

Hi. Thanks for responding to my post. :slight_smile: I'll answer to the best of my ability.

  1. For me personally, I was for the longest time like many young artists caught in the vicious cycle of always receiving praise for my art growing up which in hindsight really damaged me as an artist since I genuinely believed I was drawing good and thus wasn't aware of the many many flaws my art style had and still has depending on who you ask. I know the frustration that comes with wading through an endless sea of the same cut and paste tutorials because Sturgeon's Law.

That said, I'm always surrounded by art since I follow both artists I like and general "anime" accounts on Twitter and Instagram since drawing is one of my obsessions in life and as such, my brain tends to absorb certain details in other people's art like a sponge and of course, I make a habit of liking or saving pieces I really like if I think it could help me down the road. This for me was my "ah-ha" moment after trying to go the "mentor" route, but not having the results I was looking for either because we didn't click, they didn't teach me anything I didn't already know, or some of them weren't interested in my plight.

Knowing what to get better at really just comes down to your willingness to critically look at your own work and the most common way to do that is to simply leave it alone for a while then come back to it with a fresh mind. Often I've done that and would notice things like "Oh, her shoulders are too broad" or "The gesture her hand is making doesn't look that good." that I wouldn't have noticed had I just drawn it all (roughs, inks, coloring) in one sitting and even then, just by drawing LoaA so much, I've gotten better at noticing mistakes on the fly during the roughing stage of the process and therefore can quickly fix them without having to take a break and come back later which saves time when you are on a schedule for your comic.

Here are two examples of finding and improving upon flaws in my art all on my own using the previously mentioned method of using a search engine for tutorials and such and the aforementioned method in this post of keeping (and saving) a list of anime art pieces I liked and how it helped me easily acquire a better coloring palette for the latest chapter of my comic without me having through hours of trial and error.

Drawing example: I didn't know how to properly draw convincing breasts on my female characters growing up. Searching on DeviantArt for good breast drawing tutorials fixed that. Particularly, the best one I came across suggested to think of women's breasts as a half filled water balloon with the end pinched. Another way to put it would be to think of a circle, then apply gravity thus giving it a tear shaped appearance which is closer to how most women's breasts actually look irl. (Of course, some may have a more rounded appearance, more saggy appearance, and some are so small that they are barely there, but the same general idea still applies.)

Coloring example: When I started Chapter 6 of my comic, Life of an Aspie, I decided to experiment with the color scheme for my characters since the coloring scheme for Chapter 5 while decent left a lot to be desired. At first, I didn't know what to do so I just hopped on Twitter, scrolled through anime drawings of girls I had previously liked, saved a few of them that I thought had a good coloring scheme, opened them in Clip Studio Paint and using the Eyedropper tool, I was able to sample the different colors the artists had used to create a convincing color pallets. As a result, my colors for my comic right now in Chapter 6 look much better than the colors I myself came up with for Chapter 5.

As for "getting to the summit", I don't think there's ever a point where you reach a "summit" even if you are one of those advanced artists. A plateau sure, but speaking of advanced art, the biggest thing that separates advanced art from beginner art is realism and for that, there are books you can buy, artists with realistic styles you can study, even a simple pose practice website can help you learn the more advanced concepts like dynamic lines and foreshortening even if you just rush the drawing because of time limits.

In fact, Going back to tutorials for a moment, there is one that I found in my niche that really stuck out to me that talked about the different different skill levels of an artist and used an animu girl to help illustrate his point of going from "noob" to pro with the starting levels having the girl drawn in a choppy cartoon-y style that any beginning artist would inevitably draw in without the use of more advanced skill techniques with the later skill levels having her gradually looking more realistic which you would come to expect from somebody who's applied themselves.

2.

The easiest way to notice when a certain character is hogging the spotlight at the expense of underdeveloped ones is how much you physically insert them into the narrative. This can apply even to the main character who's supposed to be front and center of your story. For example, in Chapter 4 of LoaA, I had characters talking about Susan and had waited till near the end of the chapter to have her make a physical appearance. This way, I allowed my other characters to have a little bit of development as they discussed her actions in that chapter. In fact, I created a new character who saw the events of the chapter unfold from his perspective as he wandered through the school picking up bits and pieces about what happened.

The weakest link in a comic could be anything as different people have different opinions, but if there is a general consensus among readers that there is one part that sticks out like a sore thumb, then the weakest link becomes that much easier to find and fix. i.e Starting out, it was some ugly ass tones I was using and stubbornly clinging onto certain that I would find a way to not make them look like ass. Initially, my plan to fix that was to revamp the art of the older chapters completely and add color to them as well, but real life got in the way of that several pages in and I had to resort to simply using de-toning my tones so that they looked more paint like.

Lastly, subs come and go. You'll never really know why your sub count is dropping at times unless its a really bad story decision you made or something where its clear you screwed up on your part and it wasn't simply because the sub got bored or the story didn't click with them anymore.

This post got really long, but I do hope this answers most of your counter argument. :slight_smile:

joe_galindez
Sep '17

My counterargument to your counterargument is that I know a few obviously self-taught artists who never got better despite years of practice and loads of fans.

LordVincent
Sep '17

Chill out, noone here has the solution that will work for every artist.

Some people want to be mentors and some people want a mentor. They are obviously the people that need it and work well under such circumstances. Let them find each other and be happy.

Some people improve and work best on their own. Hell, I'm one of them. Let them work on their own and be happy.

Working with a mentor or editor doesn't mean someone gives up their artistic integrity unless they don't want to do it or don't feel it's right for them, and working without one doesn't mean you will never improve or that your stuff will turn out crap.

There are many different tastes and work methods, and one isn't more right than the other. This thread was aimed to approach something that could be really positive for some people. It wasn't implying anyone has to do anything they're not comfortable with.

Leave space for people to discuss the "how", "who" and "when" of this program.

joe_galindez
Sep '17
LordVincent

Honest question, but what do you mean by artistic integrity? Are you talking about the techniques, the message, or both?

If you're working with an editor because you're both employed by the same company, then there's going to be a house style and a house worldview. You're not free to do whatever you want, but then again, you knew that when you signed up for the paycheck.

If the editor works for you, because you hired them, then you have the final word on everything. The editor can only make suggestions. And really, they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't align themselves with your artistic vision.

I feel that an artist never really stops improving. There's always another technique to master, always another story to tell. You'll never stop learning until the day you die. The problem is that artists do die. Each of us has only so much time on this earth. So why not reach for every advantage? Why not get put yourself ahead of the competition by getting a mentor?

When I think of the purely-self-taught, I think of Srinivasa Ramanujan.

. . . an Indian mathematician who lived during the British Rule in India. Though he had almost no formal training in pure mathematics, he made substantial contributions to mathematical analysis, number theory, infinite series, and continued fractions, including solutions to mathematical problems considered to be unsolvable. Ramanujan initially developed his own mathematical research in isolation; it was quickly recognized by Indian mathematicians.

It's the "no formal training" and "developed . . . in isolation" that gets to me. What might he have achieved if he hadn't spent so much time reinventing the wheel? What mathematical discoveries and scientific advancements did the world miss out on?

A mentor can be a great help when it comes to technique. At the least, they can give one a thorough grounding in the basics (which many self-taught artists lack and which marks them). This doesn't mean that mentors lock their students in a certain way of doing things. Picasso was classically-trained and no one can say that he wasn't wildly experimental. E.C. Segar drew Popeye in order to annoy his anatomy professor. So you can't say that students aren't free to disagree with their teachers.

If anything, formal training helps you be more creative. "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." as Picasso is supposed to have said.

A mentor can also be a great help when it comes to the message -- to the wisdom embodied in the work. Here's someone who's had the kind of career you want to have. He's had the kind of life you want to have. He's dealt with many of the same problems and had many of the same conversations. As far as one person can help another person find wisdom, a mentor can help you. In fact, this is probably their real purpose. Not only do they pass down the skills, they also pass down the philosophy of the art.

I'm not saying you can't improve on your own -- you certainly can. And I'm not saying you should feel obligated to take on a mentor or an editor. That's a personal choice. It is entirely yours to make.

But no man stands alone.

LordVincent
Sep '17

...coughs

Leave space for people to discuss the "how", "who" and "when" of this program? Please? o_o

Last time we were on topic, the discussion was focused on whether mentors etc should be filtered.
I will have to agree with previous additions that some filter is probably good. Partially so that participants involved match up as well as possible, and partially so that each party gets the most out of it. Unserious participants might leave a sour aftertaste and affect the possibility of the program reoccurring in the future?

punkarsenic
Sep '17
joe_galindez

joe, maybe you should make a thread discussing being self taught vs being tutored? you have a lot to say on the matter, and so do some other people here. itd be cool to see that discussion go on uninhibited (im not saying that to shoo you away btw, but bc i would totally read that thread!)

Luminosophy
Sep '17

I really like the idea but it has to be something individuals have control over selecting the mentees. I did a program like this on Deviantart to teach illustration through a group that randomly paired people together. Every mentee I got wasn't interested in learning as much as trying to figure out what magic brush I used to make everything happen. When they found out there was no such trick, they bailed. :T

joe_galindez
Sep '17
LordVincent

Sure.

Post must be at least 20 characters.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Jennay.

kip
Sep '17
Luminosophy

Oh, that sucks to hear. I’m worried over that possibility too, hence I think the trainees should be filtered as well. Amount of time drawing, and posting comics specifically, may be important, too? Age, maybe. I feel like the whole “what’s the trick, though?” mentality may be something mainly young artists have.
A trail period like I mentioned back at the beggining of the thread may help there too.
It’s possible a short interview could even help at the very beginning of the program, to ensure expectations are clear on both sides.

IdiotWithPencil
Sep '17
Luminosophy

I remember that all the great youtube artist said like a religious chant the names of their art utensils in every video cause they get ask that like once every 2 seconds, and it was followed by "you don't need to buy this to draw better" which was quickly ignored by all beginner artist who went out and bought a black prisma colour cause they used a black prisma colour =V

amatures are weird like that, I mean having a ruler won't make me a math wizard so why would a pencil of a certain brand -_-

also I just thought of something Portfolios, why not filter based on a portfolio one for art and one with a short story of x pages about anything, that way you could see who needs help in what and who are already masters/not needing help

Luminosophy
Sep '17
kip

I think the age thing may be a little unfair. There's definitely young kids who take stuff super seriously and can handle critique. Actually I found a pretty easy way to identify them, for artists at least! They always have a very diverse portfolio. They'll be tackling really hard stuff like perspective, composition and backgrounds, not just always drawing head shots at the same front on angle. History of drawing/ writing something would be a good indicator though. If you have genuine passion you don't need someone to tell you what to do to get started.

I think you could ask both the mentor and mentee to write a short essay on what their goals are for the program (and for their work in general), and people can self select from there.

Luminosophy
Sep '17
IdiotWithPencil

Lol and on the other hand, my friends and I will always say, truthfully, "We don't use special brushes, we only use the default round brush setting" and people get upset and accuse you of lying. Because apparently textures always have to Photoshop filters or something.

I'd think portfolios would be standard. I mean there's varying degrees of amateur and master, even. Someone could be really solid in anatomy but not know how to draw dynamic figures that look and feel alive, for example. I know there's equivalent issues for writers.

UbePie
Sep '17

See my idea of the mentor ship is different then others, apparently. I don't want someone to help with my arts so much as I want someone to help me understand the business. I draw, I take art classes, nude models, art school, all that. If i want to improve in my basic art technique that's where I turn to. Would i turn down digital art tips? No, but I have already settled on my style, or at least the style I use in my comics, i don't need help developing that. I would just like a mentor that looks over stuff and says, "this could be improved." Or "You might benefit from advertising on X forum." Or explain the best approach for keeping consistent updates. I had no idea what a buffer was before I had already started posting. That sort of thing.