I don’t think we should have young teens be reading romance stories that romanticize SA. People out there who are adults can enjoy adult media with darker themes while thinking that YA shouldn’t be normalizing those things.
I am trying to say that just because people like GoT or other adult media doesn’t mean they romanticize SA. Your OP made it seem like people who like GoT aren’t allowed to criticize other media.
I'm pretty sure sex scenes, either consensual or not, are not permitted in media made for kids. At least not in most modern countries.
No, I'm saying there's a hypocrisy. People who enjoy GoT presumably do not get off on SA. People who enjoy comics that HAVE SA do not presumably get off on said SA. It should be fair across the board.
I'm also fairly certain most teens have the same level of access to GoT as they do to adult comics.
I think after 200 years english speaking part of the world should update this term so that it would make more sense with modern definition of an adult... 'xD
The world hasn't evolved yet (and are selective of what OK or not) and I anticipate this. I think you should keep doing what your doing.
Short answer GoT had naked people. Plus it was the first medieval fantasy they ever saw in quite a while.
Tons of other medieval fantasy exist but most people didn't like watching anime or old movies.
Also people follow trends by years/generations. It is not until they grow up that they find out their trend was nothing new/different and it was probably dumb.
Remember how the squid games got super popular? But the concept wasn't new. It has been done in multiple anime. Remember among us? The concept isn't new it is the game of wink murder. Their cute animations plus streamers is what made among us boom.
But yeah, people love naked people on tv shows/series since its a good pretext to see naked people without getting judged. They also love beleiving that what they watch/play is unique and has never been done before.
Did I mention naked people? 🤣🤣🤣
I do agree with you. I think some of the appeal of GoT was that is was violent and sexual. A lot of network television has to deal with strict regulation and censorship. HBO, being a private subscription network, does not need to follow these rules. When it came out in 2011, that was before a lot of the streaming wars, so I think people liked the whole shock value of the show.
I mostly just found it boring.
Speaking from a publishing perspective, romance in novels is a cottage core industry. Throw in any buzzword you want about women supporting women and there will be gatekeeping. Women make careers out of writing smutty romances which include all the toxic tropes we hate. You insult their income stream, gatekeeper will happen.
With the examples you referenced, I think I has less to do with the idea of "romance" and more to do with the effects of p*rn and how culturally accepted violence against women is. A Handmaid's Tale was written as a warning dystopia but the show, from the ads, seems to highlight more a world where abused women are fighting to reclaim the power. GoT feeds into the idea a lot of male writers have about fantasies being "historically accurate" so it's okay to assault women.
With standard romance novels, the readers don't care. As long as the books provide them a "safe" place to experience the traumas in the book. They don't care if she was beaten, gaslighted, SA'd or nearly assaulted - as long she's "happy" by the end of the book and her primary love interest "loves" her, the audience is willing to forgive all sorts of crimes. You try to fight the diehard fans, they'll gatekeep.
Completely 100% agree.
I have a lot of beef with how women are treated in media. Especially when it comes to representing lesbians because it's almost ALWAYS oversexualized and really designed for straight guys to get off to. Pisses me off. Like rage levels. lol.
I remember when Sakimichan started to do NSFW art and she got so much shit, but I applauded her for it. Women have just as much right to enjoy smut and all that as men do.
I can't watch GoT myself, I can't handle the way women are portrayed in it. I just can't. I don't judge others but for me it's really... very upsetting.
I do think women are more likely to write sex scenes and general adult content than men, and tend to write it... well, better. At least from my view. I'm not sure why, I guess it's a preference thing. But I usually prefer romance and adult content written by women than by men.
I had not considered how this sort of gatekeeping impacts specifically women, and I appreciate you bringing that to light. I'm all about supporting my sisters, especially in the LGBT+ world.
let me semi-quote the only sex scene written by a male fantasy author that didn't make me want to die of embarrassment because of how god awfully written it was:
"they did it, him and her." - Andrzej Sapkowski, I don't remember which Witcher book 'xD
But I also remember some bad sex scenes written by women (Anne Rice's ones were pretty painful)
Though there's one male author who I can think of who wrote some nice romance/sex scenes - Ken Follet in his Kingsbridge series, I really liked the theme of characters finally being able to be with each other after years and decades and finding each other even more attractive than when they were young when they could finally enjoy each other.
Yeah. I mean I really hate generalizing, especially with genders, but I do think women just tend to write them better. I think a big part of it is that women seem more likely to set the mood, create build up, and have foreplay and things like that. Guys tend to sorta just get to the point, which bores the hell out of me. They tend to be a bit more raunchy as well, in a way that just doesn't appeal to me.
I don't generally get anything from straight sex scenes but I can appreciate a passionate moment between two people when written well.
This is actually a fact. They've proven that males respond better to visual stimuli so they are more likely to watch dirty videos or look at p*rn online. Females respond better to written stimuli and that's why they're more likely to buy smutty books.
I can't really attest to the "quality" since I found out that a lot of the popular romance writers out there could actually be men writing under female pseudonyms. But in general, I know what you mean. I have seen a few straight male centric "romances" out there as I've gotten more into the Amazon circles and frankly, they make me want to cringe. Single white male is forced into a "save the world" situation and over the course of the plot meets 2+ beautiful women who become instantly besnookered with him. The other romance writers can't really do anything about their sexism without admitting that they too are sexist.
I try not to judge people for their media choices but I won't watch it. I won't watch/read anything that shows gratuitous violence (especially against women) or assault.
I apologize profusely for my gender.
We're embarrassing, lol.
Ah, harems.
I think that's one of the reasons I defended BL so hard before I decided to write anything myself. I was really new to it, but basically the moment I actually bothered to look at it, I saw so many people raging about toxic relationships or various tropes, or just complaining incessantly about BL. A media largely made by women, for women. But then they don't bat an eye at the shit in GoT or Vikings.
It stinks of sexist double-standards.
This seems like a hot topic.
My point of view:
Portraying unhealthy sexual practices and relationships - nonconsensual, abusive, exploitative - is not necessarily bad. Such relationships exist and are an unfortunate part of the human experience. Writing about them taps into audience knowledge and for some, personal trauma, which bridges a bond between story and reader.
However, I do think that romanticizing them is dangerous. The written word is powerful. For some vulnerable or obsessive people, such works will contribute as part of a greater whole to beliefs in the acceptability of such conduct. And people who want to do things that are not generally accepted as moral will search out such sources to reinforce their position. The advent of the internet has allowed for self-selected echo chambers, reinforcing nonfactual and/or nonmoral (see, e.g. torture) beliefs and reinforcement of those those beliefs has demonstrably led to believers committing acts of individual and mass violence.
So, yes, I was deeply troubled to hear about a high school science teacher in a small town 20 miles from me not only having multiple crushes on his students but belonging to a secret site which was full of romanticized stories of forbidden love between teachers and their high school students. That was a recipe for disaster.
I don't think GoT romanticizes violence or sexual assault, but rather is attempting to tell a story in a historical time period context which is authentically dangerous and violent. At some point in writing, such things can become gratuitous and that is something an author should be mindful of.
With respect to gay books for children, it is dumb to suggest that reading such a book can change someone's orientation, but a lot of people who take that position have a retrograde, unscientific belief that there is no such thing as sexual orientation - homosexuality is a sin which can afflict everyone. More jaded and knowledgeable homophobes want to suppress such books because they want to keep gay kids from feeling comfortable enough to embrace their sexuality. Modern rationality realizes that homosexuality is objectively morally neutral, though.
I recall there being a lot more to the negativity sent towards this artist aside from them drawing nsfw but for sake of not wanting to derail i wont get into it. but just drawing mature stuff is hardly something i've seen taken as an issue or reason for beef. course the internet is a place where people will start online fights over even the pettiest things (the pancake/waffle tweet sums that up perfectly imo) so nuance is important
putting more focus on the original topic I think people are free to depict whatever in fiction but at the least tag things properly (it's one of the few reasons i don't mind AO3)
heck harlan covered my thoughts almost exactly
Oh yeah, it's double-standards galore. It is not my place to judge if people want to be in a polyamorous relationship but all members are consenting to the dynamic. They'll freak out about a man with a dozen women but they don't bat an eye if a woman wants to have a relationship with a dozen men. The men don't get a choice if they're okay with the dynamic, it's all about the woman.
I can "forgive" (loosely?) regular harem dynamics in historical works if the writer understands how harems work. Historically, plural wives run the household with each wife managing a certain area. The husband is useless except to provide them money. It's a lot less sexual and more socio-political intrigue and backstabbing. But writers don't want to talk about that kind of stuff. They only want to talk about violence against women.
I would add GoT is not kind to the male characters either. I don't like Martin's writing style and shock for shock sake. But to say the women are treated worst than the men in that show is kind of not seeing the men horribly brutalized and killed (genitals cut off like Theon Greyjoy). It's an all around shit show for shock value.
It seems like there's been this idea going around that if you include a sensitive topic, you're somehow "endorsing" it.. which takes away a lot of the nuance of writing. Of course there's people who endorse the horrible things that they write about, that's why they get criticized, but to say that you can't write about sensitive topics, especially ones that should be acknowledged, such as toxic relationships, is pretty absurd. I'm with you on this one, even though I usually try to stray away from topics like those as I dislike writing about them.
closed Apr 9, '23
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