Why do we like formula writing so much?

[cherrystark]

Okay, this post is starting off as a bit of a rant. I got a recent review who rated my story as a "meh" and commented that my story had too many "false" starts before the plot actually began in the pilot story of my series. Stylistically, I took the approach that I did because I have six main characters and the more traditional way of introducing in bulk and having the narrator explain their history and relationship to the narrator did not work or make sense to me in this case. So, each character got a moment to introduce themselves to the world without another character having to explain their history for them.

I know my writing style isn't normal for new, twenty-something writers but do you think we, as writers, rely too much on tropes and "formulaic" writing for the sake of reads? I know we can't totally avoid tropes and some are too cute not to protect (like when a grump old man befriends a spunky young woman and they form a father/daughter duo or when the mother figure "adopts" her child's friend as her own and they go on Lucy/Ethel style shenanigans together). But for my work that deals with fantasy/realism, if I don't have a spunky Mary Sue protagonist who falls into a potentially supernatural love triangle, gets superpowers, and leads an army - some people won't read it.

What do you think? Do newer writers still tend to cliches in hopes of the illusive movie deal? Are some tropes more overused than others? Do you think plots get rushed and twisted so we get the coveted trilogy (which is the gold-standard for YA fiction)?

[WillowTree]

Tropes and formulaic writing are essential for genre fiction. I personally don't believe there's such a thing as an over used trope. If I'm reading a romance novel, it's because I know what I can expect going into it. It's enjoyable because it's formulaic. I love nothing more than There was only one bed! or And they were roommates! or a nice May-December relationship. I know what I'm getting if a work has these tags.

'Overused tropes' are 'overused' usually because people enjoy reading about them.

If you don't want to write a book with a "spunky Mary Sue protagonist who falls into a potentially supernatural love triangle, gets superpowers, and leads an army" then don't write it. I personally dislike love triangles and usually nope right out of a fic that has them. You'll find your own audience eventually if you keep writing what you want.

Go look at the recent thread about what people look for in horror. Look at all the different answers. Some people covet gore and murder and some people (me) want the creepy footsteps and the sense of something being 'off.' Everyone has different tastes and that thread is a great example of it

Edit - Here's the link

As I'm sure you all know, Tapas has a horror genre. And as I'm sure you also all know, there are a lot of different subgenre's within horror. Everything from ghost stories and urban legends to cosmic horror. Everything from no death's, blood or violence up to the entire world ended by an uncaring god to people being brutally murdered. So, when you go into a series marked as horror, what are you expecting? What are you looking for? And how much horror needs to be in the series? Just a few scene…

[Pan]

So there's frankly not a lot I can say on this topic since I haven't looked at your story myself, but I will say this:

If there's a complaint on a structural level, it's usually best to take an honest look at your work and see things from the reader's perspective.

You're never going to make everyone happy so go with what feels right to you in the end, but if you asked for feedback and received it that could mean this is a genuine issue that turns people off from your story. If you DIDN'T ask for feedback then disregard this advice completely, because offering feedback when it's not asked for is (imo) typically very uncalled for.

It can really suck to have people tell us they didn't like our work because it always feels personal, but I guarantee you it never is! As for tropes/cliches, I don't think this is so much a cliche issue as it as potentially a structural one? But again, I haven't seen your story, so I can't really say for sure. (My personal opinion is they're a requirement for genre fiction: i.e. in order for something to be called a romance it must have a HEA or HFN ending, if one of them dies it's not romance, it's tragedy. that's science lol)

TL;DR: Write in ways that make you happy, tropes be damned! If you're looking to truly improve, heed feedback.

[WillowTree]

How long have you been writing?

[cherrystark]

Thanks for the comments. I wasn't necessarily thrilled or offended by this review it just got me thinking. Some tropes are absolutely required in certain genres like in fiction that revolves around a "crew", you have to have the leader figure, the nerd/tech expert, the mentor/parent figure, etc. We need those tropes for the stories to work. I get tired of tropes like the love triangle that could be an awesome plot device but has been recycled into its toxic form that so many perceive as normal.

[cherrystark]

All of my life, but my current series I've been working on for a year or so. I like to study behavior trends in storytelling and patterns, both good and bad, stick out to me.

[Jay_Tanburn]

I mean if you are not an expert (experienced) writer then its fine to fall on tropes and formulas-- especially since you haven't even figured out your style completely yet.

[NickRowler]

I remember being told in school that when writing papers, you have to have a proper introduction/thesis. However, she did mention that that was not always the writing style in other countries, and sometimes thesis would be put in the middle, at the end, or have the thesis slowly be introduced through out the paper. And I remember reading Austrian research papers being formatted different than Americans ones.

I think a lot of it is just cultural. I think people expect writing, be it for academic or creative, to be set up a certain way.

However, I sort of like the idea of a plot that is not liner but a spiral. But that is not really how people are encouraged to write.

[domisotto]

There is only one rule—tell a story that makes it impossible to put the book down about the characters that get to you. Not every book is for everyone.

The tropes are distilled from the very beginning of the modern novel. If you look at the plot wheels popular in 19th century, if you look at Pamela, you will already see the same plot kernels that get people invested.

Plot structure is a good idea however. I feel that using 15 plotbeats when outlining my novels helped me to keep the story tighter, do not forget about important stuff, like personal growth.

In particular, the Pivotal Mid-Book event is something that I find is hard to do ‘by ear’. I think it has to be there from day one of the outline. And that it benefits the book tremendously, helping with the build up and the unfolding of the ups and downs afterward, toward the ending.

Naturally, I am a writer that gets involved with ‘what happened’ and plot links. I have to work from the start on giving my characters a growth arc, the NEED and WANT. And it helps me with building a cohesive story, where everything has a purpose.

[rajillustration]

I used to really push against doing formulas in writing--mostly out of spite because I don't like being told what to do. But, I realized one day that formulas and tropes that we use in writing stories are almost like a language unto themselves. Kinda out there but bear with me--a lot in the same way that it is very difficult to build a good sentence without any grammar (although that is possible!) it's really hard to build a story without a structure.

The formulas exist because people wanted to put a name to what these structures are. It's not meant to box us in, but to tell us how to communicate better. And a lot of tropes that we use are simply the cause and effect of having used those story structures.

So if you're writing a mystery--of course you would use red herrings. If you're writing a romance--you're probably going to have to introduce some form of suspense, and a lot of people use love triangles because...those do happen in real life, it's a very real experience (although I'm usually on the losing end of that experience haha).

It's a little what came first, the chicken or the egg, type of situation, but it's really just learning to be more clear when you tell a story. So you don't meander and get lost while you're writing, leaving your readers confused.

And like I do think that we stick very closely to formula in published work and movies because they're so expensive to make, they don't want to lose money on their investment by doing something different, but to me that's more about marketing and business than it is about forming a story.

[cherrystark]

I think a lot of it is just cultural. I think people expect writing, be it for academic or creative, to be set up a certain way.

You make a good point. I know what I like to see as a reader and while I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, I think that if you're going to give feedback, try to be positive about it since your styles won't always match up. I know of a lot of new writers that get super discouraged from trying to improve their craft because of people's reviews.

However, I sort of like the idea of a plot that is not liner but a spiral. But that is not really how people are encouraged to write.

Right! Human life isn't a straight line so stories shouldn't be either. The plot structure diagram has its place but why can't a character make progress one day but fall three steps back as they navigate the plot!

[cherrystark]

@domisotto

There is only one rule—tell a story that makes it impossible to put the book down about the characters that get to you. Not every book is for everyone.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Plot structure is a good idea however. I feel that using 15 plotbeats when outlining my novels helped me to keep the story tighter, do not forget about important stuff, like personal growth.

I do something similar when I plot my first draft. As I've gotten older, I like to use the Lee David Zlotoff method. When he was writing MacGyver, he would sit down and write, when there was a scene where he couldn't find an answer to, he'd step away to do something else. When he came back, he'd know where the scene needed to go.

[cherrystark]

@rajillustration You make good points. I just tire of the tropes that, in their current state, are perceived as negative like love triangles, for example.Or when people are quick to label something as bad because it doesn't fit into the little box of their choosing. Another reviewer marked my work as "eh" because she wasn't satisfied with how I did part one. I wrote it like it was the pilot of a TV series. She expected it to be a fantasy YA novel.

I am just grateful that people are still reading my story. That's been a huge encouragement to me to keep writing and working it to be the best it can be.

[domisotto]

I used outlines and Save the Cat, Writes a Novel approach for my last three novels, and I really like it, because the outlining process establishes the solid bones for the story and ensures there is enough content, ups and downs, and personal story arc.

[WillowTree]

Romancing the Beat is literally one of the most important references I use. Romance arcs have very explicit expectations and it's been a lifesaver with making my romances feel more captivating. After getting used to it, I've edited it a little bit so it fits my writing style better but man. When I was first starting out with romance arcs it was rough until I found this.

[Penni]

You're, of course, free to do whatever you'd like with your writing. However, part of that comes with if you're doing something very outside of the box, you may only attract a niche crowd with it.

I personally feel the formulas hold a lot of value. Not only does a reader know what they're getting into with a book, but it can be tricky at times to hold a reader's attention, keep them engaged in the story and your characters. Hence, the formulas. They won't apply to everyone, but they exist because they work. Bending those formulas can work if executed properly.

But in this instance, I do also think its important to critically think about the feedback you were given (assuming you asked for it, if not then disregard ) The whole point of feedback is to look at what might not be working for the reader. Personal tastes play a role in feedback but if you have multiple people tell you "This is not working for me."

You gotta have an honest conversation with yourself.

You either look at the feedback, and come to the conclusion of "you know what, I didn't pull this off as well as I thought, let me try something else." or you say "screw them, I'm doing what I want."

Ultimately, that's up to you. If you are set on sticking to the way you have it, then so be it, but be aware, if you're responding in such a way that you didn't like the fact that they criticized you (which I hope was done in a professional/politeway), then your missing a chance to improve your skill.

You also don't have to take feedback at all. If the feedback doesn't work for you, then move on. Everyone is different and you can do whatever you want, but self-evaluation is important too.

Tropes and cliches will always exist. They aren't inherently bad things, they can be used to a writer's advantage. They exist and stay because people like them. Others might not like them, but they find something that does.

The point: You can't please everyone. Do what you want with your writing, but understand that certain structures of writing exist because they work. Be open to feedback but don't feel like you have to change something because of it.

[CosmicLeon]

When I look at my old writing, I found that I did use a lot of tropes. Often times young writers write what they are exposed to, which is often tropes in media. When you grow older and experience more life in general, you find that your experience reflect in your writing. Because you had been exposed to new things and ideas, this helps you pull away from tropes, or make a trope new and interesting. I don't think that tropes are good or bad, because everything should be used in moderation. For example: there is an anime trope, where there is this very strong character who is at the top of there game, etc... and then are suddenly showed easily up by the main protagonist. This really annoys me, because said character earned that reputation, but lost it due to plot armor. I get the idea that showing the protagonist in a good/powerful light, but I want there to be a struggle, or loss. Something earned. The trope of a protagonist defeating a strong character is fine i have no issues with that, but I think tropes need substance to fill them out. I think that is what separates a good trope version and a bad one. Like the training montage of pikachu on the water wheel in order to defeat brock's onyx. You put the effort forth and earn it.
all and all: tropes and not good or bad, its the way your write them and present them.

[cherrystark]

@cjspiethillustr I agree completely. It's how the tropes are presented. I know when I was younger, my work often imitated what I saw/read. If there is real character development and the end is earned/natural, I'm a happy camper

[rajillustration]

@cherrystark ah, well that sounds more like the reader just had different expectations, and sometimes there's not much we can do about that. Like Tapas called the section "novels" so...readers are gonna expect the novel experience. You can't make everyone happy. But like you said, what matters is the people that do get it, and get really into it.

[HGohwell]

Formulas are formulas for a reasons. Because generally, they work pretty solidly. Just the other day I was recommending someone with pacing issues follows the rough patterns of 1 season anime to help find a pacing that works well and holds the audience without rushing. They're often a really good starting point, after all.

the more traditional way of introducing in bulk and having the narrator explain their history and relationship

I don't know if you've not quite explained this right, but that doesn't sound traditional, that sounds like bad exposition. When I think of bulk introductions, I think the way I did in my comic which was brief names and you'll work out the rest as it goes, natural with no exposition, or the anime style of introducing one character per episode in a drip feed, which is probably closer to what you're describing as your style, but by then the plot has started.

What do you think? Do newer writers still tend to cliches in hopes of the illusive movie deal? Are some tropes more overused than others? Do you think plots get rushed and twisted so we get the coveted trilogy (which is the gold-standard for YA fiction)?

I think you're underestimating the realism of a lot of writers on Tapas. Or in general. Most writers I know aren't expecting a big movie deal, ever. I've not met anyone who's really pushed for a trilogy. Maybe out there in genre fiction land where publishers are churning out knock offs and rebranding to cash in, but most indie authors are here are writing a story they love first and foremost.

And let's be real, there are some pieces that hit every cliche you can name for their genre and are still amazing. Like we were talking about in the horror thread The Woman In Black hits almost every horror cliche there is? Still a work of art. I don't know how many of you have read Another rather than watched the anime, lots of cliche's and overdone YA tropes, still amazing.