Why women often are not people in novels/serials which are made "for women"? (WARNING: this is nothing but a big, big butthurt. I warned you.)

[echoeotto]

Don't get me wrong, I love sci-fi! And you're right, there are some great examples of female-led sci-fi.

However, they tend to be recent (within the last few decades) and are still a minority. I've also heard more stories about female authors, illustrators, and actresses being discriminated against in sci-fi and horror circles vs. any other genre.

Granted, this is definitely biased because I pay attention to sci-fi, horror, and fantasy stuff more, so of course I'd hear more about them. Also, the stories I've heard/read about are pretty much all in the US, so that may be different in Russia and other places.

Examples from a preliminary search: The Guardian, The Conversation, The Independent

[Kura]

My sister grew up believing she was not a 'real' girl / woman because she didn't act like or understand the reasoning of the female characters in stories she read. She legitimately thought that something was wrong with her and she was not and could never be seen an anyone as normal cause she just couldn't figure out how to act 'normal' like the woman in these book. Even if I told her "It's just bad writing" she'd retort with "If it's bad writing then WHY does everyone write them like that???" it was so much a common majority in the stories that she read that it was the 'normal' for her in what girls should be like.

It also didn't help that any book that had any girl that was different from these tropes usually had the line "I'm not like normal girls"

It has been getting better over the years, but she's still refuses to believe it's bad writing if it's just so common because "If they're bad writers how do they manage to get published?"

[indigodrawing]

Usually in the "novel for women" you have one main heroine, which is... umm... nobody. Really. She often have no hobbies, no interests, no dreams, no purposes, not related with relationships between genders. The whole her life is building around romantic interactions with men

You know, in videogames, there's the concept of the "empty-vessel" protagonist. The idea is that if you give the player character no characterisation at all (and in more than a few cases not even a voice of their own!) then the player can more easily assume the role of that character. They're an empty vessel a player can pour themselves into.

Take Gordon Freeman from Half-Life, for example, the ur-example. What do we know about him, really? We know he's a brilliant scientist, we know he earned a PhD from MIT, we know he has facial hair and glasses and... that's about it. We don't know his thoughts or feelings, his hopes or dreams, his political opinions, his sexual orientation, or anything. He's just a puppet for the player to shoot things up through the screen.

What about Chell from the Portal series? We know her first name, her general appearance, the fact that she's a test subject at Aperture Science and that she's possibly an orphan and again that's all we know.

I wonder if these non-character main characters in romance books serve the same function, an empty vessel for the reader to pour themselves into?

[travelercomic]

I guess I never really notice stuff like that because I don't really read/watch a lot of media designed for women. I do think a part of that could come from what you're suggesting, poorly written pieces of nothing without much personality or interests. I like to think that I give all the female characters in my comics distinct personalities, dreams, insecurities, etc. but I could see what you're suggesting being part of the reason I don't like that kind of media.

I think a lot of novels and games designed for women go for the empty vessel type of character so that you could put yourself into the shoes of the character in a sort of self insertion, and in general I'm not into that kind of story telling because I like distinct characters and diving into their psychology.

[SleepingPoppy]

Many others have already brought up what I would have for this topic. I tend to think of the common romance novels as "junk food" books. For many they're fun quick reads that lack substance. I think the "blank" or poorly written woman problem is a cross genre and cross media problem. A lot the big sphere's of creative media are still male dominated, and we're still in the process of pushing for well written and interesting female characters. Dynamic female characters. Interesting female characters.

Of course there is also the concept of intentionally blank leads, which has been brought up and is a thing too. Self insert characters and what not. ^^

Specifically to romance, though, I don't read straight romance much, but I'm really in love with the Outlander series if a historical romance with a hint of time travel and a great female protagonist strikes your fancy. It manages to be a really compelling romance, but there's also a lot more to the characters, the world, and the plot. (the audio book is also really well acted, if you like audio books)

[travelercomic]

If you can get into well written fanfics and are into stardew valley, just tossing this out there but there's a very well made fanfic I read (I'm not usually into fanfics so this should tell you something) and the author does a fantastic job of taking a literal empty vessel character of the farmer and gives her a very distinct personality and even character development. This is almost unheard of in fanfiction in general and to see the character portrayed in such a fantastic way hooked me in.
It's a romance fanfic with Shane btw, but well worth the read if you don't mind reading about topics such as anxiety, depression, suicide, etc. Those are pretty central to Shane's character.

[fever]

Hands down this is why I'm sooooo picky when reading romance novels/manga/webtoons. I'm more concerned about the heroine's personality and behavior rather than the male characters. This is also why i tend to read jousei even as teenager all the time compared to one or two shoujos. Since jousei authors esp are more realistic in their approach of their heroines. And still managed to make me dokidoki hahaha.

[ratscout]

Sometimes a woman's greatest ambition in life is to be a wife and a mother and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think both women and men usually have it in their minds that they'd like to get married some day and it's a big goal of both of theirs; however, when it comes to women, I think this is a goal that's just more on their minds than it is for men. It all goes backs to biology and stuff, so it makes sense that these books appeal to women.

Romance novels are often just wish fulfillment stories and I think this is why the female character has little to no personality so that the reader can insert themselves into that woman's shoes easier. If we think about gender differences, women don't like to watch straight-up porn so much like men do because women want a little bit more of an emotional connection which is why people often think of romance novels as porn for women and may be a reason as to why romance novels are so shallow; the writer wants to give the reader just a bit of that emotional connection before getting to the sexy stuff XD.

That being said, I'm sure there's some really good ones out there. I think Gone with the Wind is considered romance and that's a great story. Whether you love or hate Scarlett, you can't deny that she fought tooth and nail to keep her family afloat no matter what it costed her.

[unknown_user]

Yes, I know what are you talking about, but there is a difference. In the game you can control character and endow them with personality in this way. You decide what they will do. When you are passive reader, you can't do it. You can just make a facepalm when heroine do stupid things when she shouldn't or do nothing when she should. So games are give much better experience with that "empty vessel" concept in my opinion.

[unknown_user]

I've played in Stardew Valley some time ago and I'm ok with bad mental states depicted. But I'm somewhat confused because you didn't mention the name of this fan fiction (or I just didn't understand something). What is the name of this fanfic?

[travelercomic]

Oh I was gonna see if you were interested before I bothered looking it up XD Hold on

https://archiveofourown.org/works/14663939

So this is the start of the story, but there's actually a continuation to it which is where a lot of the meat and potatoes are when it comes to development. You should be able to follow links after you finish this part of the fic.

[MK_Wizard]

I... get what you mean and I'm a woman. I never got those books myself. I like romance that feels natural not mushy or x-rated.

[unknown_user]

Sometimes a woman's greatest ambition in life is to be a wife and a mother and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that

You still should have strong personality and be wise to raise your child properly. I don't believe that you can be a good mom if you are stupid. In the "novels for women" women often don't have a personality nor brains, and that is exactly which pissed me off. Btw I know personally at least two women who have children and care about them a lot and they are not like those characters at all. One of them is learning in post-graduate school with me, another is historian and great lover of arthouse movies. Even if their family-related part of life is the most important for them, as I can see, they still are interesting and reasonable human beings without a doubt
Male-centrism also doesn't help when you want to have a healthy relationship with a husband or boyfriend. For good relationships, he should respect you and think that you are valuable human being (not only attractive girl). If you are concentrated on him too heavily, it will just annoy him (saying from sad experience). ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I think Gone with the Wind is considered romance and that's a great story. Whether you love or hate Scarlett, you can't deny that she fought tooth and nail to keep her family afloat no matter what it costed her.

Yep, I've read "Gone with the Wind". Among the other things, main characters are pretty well-developed. It isn't my favorite book but it is totally not bad. Reading it was interesting, and I understand why people call it classic.

[amortelito]

OMG yes!!!!! I hate when they promote "womanish" cliché books and movies as if it was what all women want. Every time a plot is based on the girl getting together with the boy, and nothing else matters, annoys me so much. But I have conflicting feelings because they keep doing this lazy quality writing because so many people consume it!!!

I was watching that Christmas movie about a reporter who gets a prince fall in love with her, this is as lazy cliche as you can get...every other female in the room loved it!!! I could not believe it. It would be easy for me to point fingers at the industry but is not like they don't have a huge audience. I think the problem is the lack of other options. Some people want to have this kind of plain protagonist so that they can insert themselves in the story, some other enjoy more complex writing.

[ratique]

I'm agreeing 100%!! One of the main reasons why I create a fantasy/romance (and before that, a Scifi/Romance) is because I was regularly upset by what I found in the bookstore.

It is hard enough to find female heroes in these stories, but then, when you do, they are written like the most typical Mary Sue. They are absolutely beautiful, but of course have NO IDEA that they are. They have little to no character, since the reader is supposed to use this as a wish fulfillment and imagine themselves in their role... does anyone EVER do that? Please tell me, because it's not working for me.

If the heroine isn't the naive idiot, then she's usually the exact opposite. Overly secure, can beat ANYBODY in ANYTHING and is the smartest around. Oh, and she is also a huge bi***, because that archetype can't be friendly for some reason.

I don't even have a problem if the heroine is saved or protected by the male protagonist, since I believe in partnership. He can beat people up, but she, at the very least, needs to be entertaining and have brains to hold her own.

I could continue, but you guys know exactly what has been going wrong for so long. The fact that all of us are here today, creating stories so very different from what has been done in the past and regular print media, speaks for itself. Thank goodness for all of you guys.

[Zaboem]

You are not wrong, @tired_programmer. I do not know hardly anything about Russian literature, but I could believe that the stories you describe are popular. In the West, we might label it pulp romance instead of "for women" but I think we are talking about the same thing.

Part of the reason shallow romance stories have always been popular is that they grow out of story formulas which are hard wired into the human mind. In literature theory, this formula called the monomyth. There is a male version and a female version of the monomyth. In the male version (and I do over-simply here) a protagonist is called to adventure, goes on a journey to an unfamiliar world, faces a series challenges, and ultimately wins the climatic conflict by harnessing a power which was inside him all along. Every other character fills a certain slot like "the mentor." In the female version, the heroine takes the same journey but wins in the end by disrupting the social order and establishing a new power structure in which she is equal to or dominate over the other characters. Examples of the male version are easy to recognize from Beowulf to Dragonball, from The Epic of Gilgemesh to Rocky movies. Ironically, Dorothy Gale in the Wizard of Oz is a great example of a hero in the masculine version. Female version examples range from Pride & Prejudice to Legally Blond to (my favorite example) Alice in Wonderland.

In the male version, a romance or any other social relationship is entirely optional. The resolution of the conflict comes from within. In the female version, the social relationships are the entire point, and the inner traits of the characters are optional. Now, some of these are excellent stories despite sticking to the formula. It is rare for an author to break out of the formula, and she is likely aware of the pattern in order break it.

What I'm trying to say is this: although we are talking about lazy writing, it's what we should expect as the norm.

[indagold]

Thats why call it a chick flick/lit. It's mostly written by women as an escapist fantasy with some mary sue and the tough bad boy/prince charming/vampire, etc etc who loves her. I've seen men write it too but surprisingly its a mostly female authors who write it. I honestly hate it because it gives female authors a bad name and makes people not want to hire them assuming every women just writes a one dimensional sappy romance piece.

[baasinsimple]

think of it as like Isekai, like Sword Art Online. It's self insert fiction so people can put themselves in that position.

[Kura]

I have a group of friends that all name their 'blank slate' characters in otome games 'Table' because she's usually so void of character traits that she's not even a person, to the point the other characters in the game don't even treat her as a person.

She's just a object, something that's nice to have around, rude to put your feet on but everyone does anyway, and mostly silent. Like a table.

Like, they understand the concept of the 'blank slate character' but for woman's media in particular it's taken 5 steps further to the point when you don't feel like you're inserting yourself in the story, you just feel like an object.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I find it really odd that people keep saying this trend is about self-insertion. Like, if the OP had the same complaints about the main characters of more male-oriented action-adventure stories, would y'all still be using that excuse??

I doubt it. After all, no one wants to read an epic about a hero who has literally nothing interesting about them and only exists to have their lives revolve around another character.
But we're saying no one actually wants that in romance stories either. It can work, and it can be enjoyable, but nobody asked for it, and it's become so prevalent that it's shaped the culture around romantic literature and women's literature in a detrimental way.

It's not like you can't enjoy a story without being able to take the place of the characters who are in it. (a) If you need to do that, that's what your imagination is for, and (b) when I think back to some of the most famous and popular stories throughout history, they are usually those with unique and memorable characters, not bland trope-filled shells. So why is self-insertion suddenly so important...?