Sep 2015
18 / 40
Sep 2015
Sep 2015
shazzbaa
Sep '15
ghostnxs

I mean, I would see "I think this would be interesting and a cool story" as your reason to create a story. I don't see anything wrong with that reason, tbh! "This idea is interesting to me and I want to explore it" is the reason I invent most of my story ideas.

I don't look at it as a "should." Do you have any interest in looking for themes in your work? Then, like, go for it! If you don't have interest in looking for themes in your work, then, don't! Are you enjoying writing stories that you just think would make a good story? Then by all means, keep doing that!!
If you're looking for how to make a story better, I really think most of the time it'll be more effective to look into more tangible aspects of storytelling -- things like character arcs, and whether the resolution rings true, whether the conflict is believable, etc -- than to despair over whether there's a GOOD REASON or a DEEP THEME behind it.

Theme rises out of every other element working together -- like ingredients in cooking. You're basically asking "do I have to make a specific flavour?" and the truth is that whether you're working with a recipe, or throwing ingredients together as you go and seeing what tastes good, in the end, you WILL have a specific flavour. If it tastes good, you win! Now, knowing ahead of time that you're making a sweet dish, or a tangy dish, may help make sure that you choose ingredients that don't conflict or compete with each other. But if you find your flavour isn't working, it's less helpful to say "make a better flavour" and more helpful to look at what ingredients are conflicting with each other.

ashriott
Sep '15
ghostnxs

I too start off with an idea or concept which may potentially be an interesting story. When I first begin writing a story, sometimes themes are the least of my worries. However, I notice themes sneakily slip into stories the more you write them, which is the case for me anyway. Well, using your underwater idea as an example:

  1. Find vague concept that's interesting. For example people living under water.
    What kind of people live under water? How is life and culture differed from living there as opposed to on land. Themes may include learning different cultures/lifestyle, racism, and even environment maybe.

  2. Give reason for living under water. Create conflict.
    Is there a stigma between living underwater or on land? Themes can be home, migration, war, piracy, love and loss.

  3. Think of resolution, based on main characters evolution through the story.
    The resolution will probably be reflective of the overall themes introduced, and ties them together into one big blob of meaningful. Granted, they don't have to be overly meaningful or essential to the plot. It starts to get a bit preferential.

Now I'm just touching on very basic and broad themes with the above examples. The rest depends on your content and characters' storyline. I'm not saying you have to include themes, or come up with one before you start the story... But I believe our stories are bound to have recurring themes whether you like it or not.

TheLemmaLlama
Sep '15

I guess a theme can draw new readers to something that otherwise has zero connection to what they're interested in sweat_smile Without a theme, it's just another "X happens to Y and then Z happens" scenario as far as a stranger is concerned, which sounds about as interesting as watching the news frowning Reading about "truth" or "love", on the other hand, seems more meaningful stuck_out_tongue

I don't advocate shoehorning a theme in just for the sake of a theme though; if you have no idea and interest about the theme, it shows sweat_smile You can definitely write a good story without a theme in mind, it's just a bit harder to describe it in a way that appears interesting to new readers wink

ghostnxs
Sep '15

After thinking about it I don't think theme is that important, especially when I don't hear people talking about themes when they read a story. If you asked me what the theme was for the book "And Then There Were None"(My favorite book) I wouldn't be able to tell you. Nor do I care that I don't. Thank you all for your input.

eagle1
Sep '15

Sorry I'm late, I had a busy day yesterday.

Theme is VERY important to your story, but it's also something that you don't need to spend a lot of time on originally. Sounds contrary, but let me explain.

The theme is the underlying sense of what the story is ABOUT. It's the skeleton that the whole story hangs on. The plot of Spider-Man is a high-school nerd that gets bit by a radioactive spider. The theme is "with great power, comes great responsibility". I'm stealing that example from Peter David, by the way. Note that all of the best Spider-Man stories follow that theme. Showing the problems with Peter's life, and the bad things that happen when he tries to shirk his responsibilities. Either to himself, Mary Jane, Aunt May, or even Uncle Ben. The plots, conflicts, characters, and such all vary, but the theme remains constant throughout all of the best stories told about Spider-man.
A theme is not about a moral (though it can be) or a political message (though it can be) or something deep (though it can be) but rather what the story is about.

As a writer/storyteller this means that you need to be able to identify your theme and write to it. Once the initial draft is done, it's time to do several things. You have to figure out what your conflict is, what your theme is, and what your plot is, and eliminate the dead weight from your script that does not advance one or more of those items. This is the hard part of writing, and just about every professional writer does this, in one way or another as part of the editing process.

I am a planner, so most of the time, I have my theme figured out before I start the actual script, but there's no requirement to do it that way.

In the end, though, knowing what the theme of the work is becomes essential in producing the best story that you can write. It's as important to the writing as the Gesture Line is to drawing. It's the single word, phrase, or sentence that your entire work hangs on.

Eagle
(Art references....Neat!)

ghostnxs
Sep '15

Thème just seems like a reason why you are writing the book or some aspect of a message. Which I don't really have or care for. Even though a story may unconsciously have a theme, that is up to reader interpretation. That's what I want. I always hated English class's because when we were asked about meanings there was one right answer. I have no interest in putting stuff into my story just to fit a theme. If I was trying to share a thought with the world then I'd have a theme, but I don't so I don't see the point.

starlightcityentert
Sep '15

As a writer, I'd rather include a mix of several themes that interest me or that I would like to convey through my story. But I don't sit down to write a story with the intent to pigeon hole it into a theme, I'd rather come up with the general idea/plot/characters first and then the themes will develop themselves the further I flesh out the story and build the world...themes should be organic imo, unless you are hellbent on writing a story about a particular theme then by all means.

To me, the story comes first, any "themes" or commentary about something is secondary. Like if I'm developing character A's personality and that character is say...a nihilist, once its all said and done, I may want to explore aspects of nihilism and include it in the story regarding that character's arc, but not in a heavy handed way either. I believe that the mantra "keep it simple, stupid" has merit, especially in the medium of comics. I tend to write with the agenda of having a story that can be followed easily by most readers, while having stuff for readers that tend dive deeper into a story's themes.

starlightcityentert
Sep '15
eagle1

Good example, that theme itself is the core of the character, and it's apart of what humanizes him and makes him the character that anyone could identify with, because he was not a god among men, or a rich billionaire, but an everyman with common problems that had to balance that with suddenly having incredible powers.

I'd tend to think though as Lee/Ditko began shaping the character, that theme presented itself once they took a step back and looked at how the story was unfolding.

eagle1
Sep '15
ghostnxs

No, theme has nothing to do with why you are writing the story. It can be a message, but theme is the glue that holds everything together. It's one of the 5 basic elements of fiction for a reason, and it's not difficult at all.

To be honest, if a story does not have a theme that the writer has worked on, then it's going to eventually show. Most readers are not astute enough to pick it up, since they think it's hard, but they will be able to tell that the story does not hang together for some reason.

I do writing and art. When I see a message like your's, I tend to just replace the word theme (or plot, or conflict, or whatever essential element of fiction someone is saying is not important) with an element of art, such as perspective, composition, or anatomy. All things that artists know are important, but people just learning to draw tend to think they can ignore and the work will still be good.

And you don't put things in a story to fit a theme, as much as you take things out that don't fit. A theme can be as simple as a word, or a pair of words. It should never be more complicated than a single thought.

Let us say, for sake of argument, that you decide that the story you are telling is about childhood friends facing a huge challenge in the form of a quest, and eventually realising their romantic feelings about each other. That's your theme. Boil it down to "Love is under your nose". Then when you are doing the second draft of the script, look for places to work with that theme, such as having a secondary character point it out before the two mains have ever realised it. There is even a rule amongst certain screenwriters that a character must state the theme of the movie by the end of the first act.

I don't tend to follow that, but on The Law of the Jungle, I did it, just because it was fun. It's on this page1.

For the most part, what having the theme identified does, is allows you, as the writer, to focus your story more. It is just as essential to good writing (and don't get me wrong, there are tons of professional (and that means making a living at it) writers who are NOT doing themes, and frankly, their writing suffers for it). As a reader, lack of a theme becomes obvious to me once I get to the 20 page or so mark, and I will stop reading. Writers that have a theme are obvious because their writing has more depth, focus, and direction.

Remember, theme is not something arcane, it's just what the story is actually about.

Aliens: A mother's love (though some of the scenes that drove that home were cut)
The Batman movie Trilogy: What is a hero?
Batman Comics: Avenging murdered parents
Gotham TV Series: Descent into madness/moral ambiguity
Iron Man Trilogy: Redemption

There's nothing difficult about it, and it will help focus your stories.

Eagle
(But in the end, it is your choice)

ghostnxs
Sep '15

So in other words theme is just used to focus and is a result of the entire story? I don't know still seems unnecessary, because if I move the story in a logical and sensible manner based on the characters and plot, would that be theme? if so that seems unimportant. As an element, when you could just tell people to focus on their keeping their characters consistent along with plot. You'd end up creating a unifying experience without thinking of plot. But oh well I've had enough of this discussion.

eagle1
Sep '15

In other words, I should not bother to answer the questions you raised? I'd like to, but only if it's communication and conversation.

Eagle
(And you're moving in the right direction there)

ghostnxs
Sep '15

Oh you can comment on those, just because I've had enough doesn't mean I won't listen. I'm just loosing interest in talking about theme that is all.

ghostnxs
Sep '15

Even though my main focus is art(drawing for others) I'd still like to know some writing so I can create the little ideas in my head without looking like a fool.

eagle1
Sep '15
ghostnxs

It's what I was saying...Theme is not complicated. It's not like having to diagram a sentence. It's just a part of the soup of a story. Character (who), Plot (what), Setting (when and where), and Theme (why) are pretty much essentials. None of them are more important than the other, though different writers are going to emphasise different elements. Myself, I try to balance them, since I have a preference for Plot and Charater.

None of them are difficult, it's only English Teachers who want to do ugly things to student's minds that make it difficult. I have seen art teachers do the same thing, trying to make composition something mystical and occult.

Eagle
(And I hate that)

ghostnxs
Sep '15

Okay, so basically when I create the idea for a story before I do anything else I should write the theme. My story is about a group of people who try to keep the peace between a race of alien immigrants and mankind. I thought that my theme would be unity or balance. Am I doing this wrong?

eagle1
Sep '15

Um...No, not quite.

I am a planner. I do plan out my theme before I start writing, just so that I know that scenes I am writing advance my theme, as well as the other elements.

Most people are more comfortable just writing, then between the first and second draft, identifying the elements. The second draft is more important than the first. The first is where most people just try to get the whole story out in order.

For the second draft, you look at your theme (and Unity or Balance seems good, as well as Overcoming prejudice), your plot, your conflict (there are only three conflicts: Man vs Man, Man vs Nature, and Man vs Himself, and all stories contain 1 or more of those), your characters, and your setting. You start trimming and re-writing on those elements to bring your story together. The shorter your story is, the more laser focused those elements have to be and the more ruthless you have to be in cutting things that don't advance them.

Just as an example, look at Avatar. Now, that movie is a bad example of theme, as it's heavy-handed and off-putting in a lot of ways, but everything about the movie, down to the vehicle design is to advance the plot, characters, conflict, and theme. It's also a perfect example of what happens when any of the elements take too much prominence in story telling. Don't ignore any of the elements, but don't push them too far either. And the easiest one to push too far isn't even Theme, it's Character. Most beginning writers push it too far, and their defence is "I'm writing a character-driven story" not realising that that doesn't mean what they think it means.

Just be aware the the theme, and keep the theme simple. Unity or balance is perfect. That also gives you part of your plot direction, since the obvious reason for the theme is that things are out of balance and must be set right. It also gives you interesting things to do with the characters, such as having characters that have to overcome the conflict that they have with each other in order to balance each other and achieve unity. This would even be a good place for a secondary touchstone character who is either human or alien, but practices a form of art (martial, creative, social, mental, whatever) that has balance and unity as its core teaching and can occasionally say things that get the main characters thinking about the direction they're moving in.

As I said, it's a skeleton to hang the rest of the story on. And your story then becomes about: restoring the peace and balance between these two people before it tears the world apart. That's just the theme expanded to a sentence that describes the story.

Eagle
(does that help with your original question?)

ghostnxs
Sep '15

Yes, that does help, thank you. I don't think I've ever made more than one draft when it came to comics but novels I also go back.

eagle1
Sep '15

In this day and age of good word processors and scripting programmes, first draft is really not accurate any more. I too just keep working the manuscript until I get it where I want it. These days it's more like working a rough sketch into a finished drawing, instead of re-typing it over and over again.

By the way, in keeping with that theme, it's possible for your MC's to be of different races, and have to join in some way to bring the story to a resolution. Sorry, once the ideas start flowing, they don't stop.

Eagle
(But I wanna read it when you write it)