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Sep 2015

Thème just seems like a reason why you are writing the book or some aspect of a message. Which I don't really have or care for. Even though a story may unconsciously have a theme, that is up to reader interpretation. That's what I want. I always hated English class's because when we were asked about meanings there was one right answer. I have no interest in putting stuff into my story just to fit a theme. If I was trying to share a thought with the world then I'd have a theme, but I don't so I don't see the point.

As a writer, I'd rather include a mix of several themes that interest me or that I would like to convey through my story. But I don't sit down to write a story with the intent to pigeon hole it into a theme, I'd rather come up with the general idea/plot/characters first and then the themes will develop themselves the further I flesh out the story and build the world...themes should be organic imo, unless you are hellbent on writing a story about a particular theme then by all means.

To me, the story comes first, any "themes" or commentary about something is secondary. Like if I'm developing character A's personality and that character is say...a nihilist, once its all said and done, I may want to explore aspects of nihilism and include it in the story regarding that character's arc, but not in a heavy handed way either. I believe that the mantra "keep it simple, stupid" has merit, especially in the medium of comics. I tend to write with the agenda of having a story that can be followed easily by most readers, while having stuff for readers that tend dive deeper into a story's themes.

Good example, that theme itself is the core of the character, and it's apart of what humanizes him and makes him the character that anyone could identify with, because he was not a god among men, or a rich billionaire, but an everyman with common problems that had to balance that with suddenly having incredible powers.

I'd tend to think though as Lee/Ditko began shaping the character, that theme presented itself once they took a step back and looked at how the story was unfolding.

No, theme has nothing to do with why you are writing the story. It can be a message, but theme is the glue that holds everything together. It's one of the 5 basic elements of fiction for a reason, and it's not difficult at all.

To be honest, if a story does not have a theme that the writer has worked on, then it's going to eventually show. Most readers are not astute enough to pick it up, since they think it's hard, but they will be able to tell that the story does not hang together for some reason.

I do writing and art. When I see a message like your's, I tend to just replace the word theme (or plot, or conflict, or whatever essential element of fiction someone is saying is not important) with an element of art, such as perspective, composition, or anatomy. All things that artists know are important, but people just learning to draw tend to think they can ignore and the work will still be good.

And you don't put things in a story to fit a theme, as much as you take things out that don't fit. A theme can be as simple as a word, or a pair of words. It should never be more complicated than a single thought.

Let us say, for sake of argument, that you decide that the story you are telling is about childhood friends facing a huge challenge in the form of a quest, and eventually realising their romantic feelings about each other. That's your theme. Boil it down to "Love is under your nose". Then when you are doing the second draft of the script, look for places to work with that theme, such as having a secondary character point it out before the two mains have ever realised it. There is even a rule amongst certain screenwriters that a character must state the theme of the movie by the end of the first act.

I don't tend to follow that, but on The Law of the Jungle, I did it, just because it was fun. It's on this page1.

For the most part, what having the theme identified does, is allows you, as the writer, to focus your story more. It is just as essential to good writing (and don't get me wrong, there are tons of professional (and that means making a living at it) writers who are NOT doing themes, and frankly, their writing suffers for it). As a reader, lack of a theme becomes obvious to me once I get to the 20 page or so mark, and I will stop reading. Writers that have a theme are obvious because their writing has more depth, focus, and direction.

Remember, theme is not something arcane, it's just what the story is actually about.

Aliens: A mother's love (though some of the scenes that drove that home were cut)
The Batman movie Trilogy: What is a hero?
Batman Comics: Avenging murdered parents
Gotham TV Series: Descent into madness/moral ambiguity
Iron Man Trilogy: Redemption

There's nothing difficult about it, and it will help focus your stories.

Eagle
(But in the end, it is your choice)

So in other words theme is just used to focus and is a result of the entire story? I don't know still seems unnecessary, because if I move the story in a logical and sensible manner based on the characters and plot, would that be theme? if so that seems unimportant. As an element, when you could just tell people to focus on their keeping their characters consistent along with plot. You'd end up creating a unifying experience without thinking of plot. But oh well I've had enough of this discussion.

In other words, I should not bother to answer the questions you raised? I'd like to, but only if it's communication and conversation.

Eagle
(And you're moving in the right direction there)

Oh you can comment on those, just because I've had enough doesn't mean I won't listen. I'm just loosing interest in talking about theme that is all.

Even though my main focus is art(drawing for others) I'd still like to know some writing so I can create the little ideas in my head without looking like a fool.

It's what I was saying...Theme is not complicated. It's not like having to diagram a sentence. It's just a part of the soup of a story. Character (who), Plot (what), Setting (when and where), and Theme (why) are pretty much essentials. None of them are more important than the other, though different writers are going to emphasise different elements. Myself, I try to balance them, since I have a preference for Plot and Charater.

None of them are difficult, it's only English Teachers who want to do ugly things to student's minds that make it difficult. I have seen art teachers do the same thing, trying to make composition something mystical and occult.

Eagle
(And I hate that)

Okay, so basically when I create the idea for a story before I do anything else I should write the theme. My story is about a group of people who try to keep the peace between a race of alien immigrants and mankind. I thought that my theme would be unity or balance. Am I doing this wrong?

Um...No, not quite.

I am a planner. I do plan out my theme before I start writing, just so that I know that scenes I am writing advance my theme, as well as the other elements.

Most people are more comfortable just writing, then between the first and second draft, identifying the elements. The second draft is more important than the first. The first is where most people just try to get the whole story out in order.

For the second draft, you look at your theme (and Unity or Balance seems good, as well as Overcoming prejudice), your plot, your conflict (there are only three conflicts: Man vs Man, Man vs Nature, and Man vs Himself, and all stories contain 1 or more of those), your characters, and your setting. You start trimming and re-writing on those elements to bring your story together. The shorter your story is, the more laser focused those elements have to be and the more ruthless you have to be in cutting things that don't advance them.

Just as an example, look at Avatar. Now, that movie is a bad example of theme, as it's heavy-handed and off-putting in a lot of ways, but everything about the movie, down to the vehicle design is to advance the plot, characters, conflict, and theme. It's also a perfect example of what happens when any of the elements take too much prominence in story telling. Don't ignore any of the elements, but don't push them too far either. And the easiest one to push too far isn't even Theme, it's Character. Most beginning writers push it too far, and their defence is "I'm writing a character-driven story" not realising that that doesn't mean what they think it means.

Just be aware the the theme, and keep the theme simple. Unity or balance is perfect. That also gives you part of your plot direction, since the obvious reason for the theme is that things are out of balance and must be set right. It also gives you interesting things to do with the characters, such as having characters that have to overcome the conflict that they have with each other in order to balance each other and achieve unity. This would even be a good place for a secondary touchstone character who is either human or alien, but practices a form of art (martial, creative, social, mental, whatever) that has balance and unity as its core teaching and can occasionally say things that get the main characters thinking about the direction they're moving in.

As I said, it's a skeleton to hang the rest of the story on. And your story then becomes about: restoring the peace and balance between these two people before it tears the world apart. That's just the theme expanded to a sentence that describes the story.

Eagle
(does that help with your original question?)

Yes, that does help, thank you. I don't think I've ever made more than one draft when it came to comics but novels I also go back.

In this day and age of good word processors and scripting programmes, first draft is really not accurate any more. I too just keep working the manuscript until I get it where I want it. These days it's more like working a rough sketch into a finished drawing, instead of re-typing it over and over again.

By the way, in keeping with that theme, it's possible for your MC's to be of different races, and have to join in some way to bring the story to a resolution. Sorry, once the ideas start flowing, they don't stop.

Eagle
(But I wanna read it when you write it)

I plan on making my MC's different races, without that how can there really be unity or balance if I just focus on one group. I didn't write what I planned on doing because well that would spoil the story. Since you know so much more than me about writing got information on the rest of the fiction elements?

They have fancy titles, but it really breaks down into who, what, where, when, why, and how. Character is the one most people think they are pretty good at, but it's the easiest one to mess up.

Characters need to grow and change to be interesting to the reader. That's really the only thing that most people attempting to write today don't do. Their characters might be deeply developed, but they are also stagnant.
The secondary characters usually need the most work. For that, I highly recommend tvtropes.com. You can spend hours there going from link to link laughing at the way they distill your favourite stories. It will also give you some good ideas of what not to do. Be sure to look at the webcomic tropes.

Setting is also fairly easy. The main thing to watch on that is exposition. You are looking at a very complex setting, but you can avoid part of that by setting the story "20 minutes in the Future" which is a trope, but it allows you to use our current society as a basis, and then let you contrast the alien culture against that. It's a good idea to plan scenes that let you show the differences in the cultures while at the same time letting those scenes serve other purposes as well, such as introducing characters, plot and conflict.
Be careful, as a lot of Sci-Fi and Fantasy are written to give the setting a chance to say things about our society, and that has been badly done to the point that if you go that route, you have to be very subtle, but in addition, a lot of astute readers are going to automatically start looking for what you are trying to 'say' with your aliens, and who they are really supposed to be in the allegorical sense.

Conflict is where a lot of people miss out. There are three types of conflict, Man vs Man, Nature, and Himself. The Man vs Himself is not used enough in webcomics, and needs to be seen more, as the way we find out the most about a person is seeing them fight their own nature or drives. Nature is also under-utilised, but those two are why you can have a story without a villain, as stories don't have to have Man vs Man at all.

Plot....Dang...This is the hard one....See, there are no new plots. Some people claim there are only 7 plots total. You can find a lot of really good articles on this, but basically, there is nothing new under the sun. The only thing you can do is put a new twist, or angle on it. Some people don't even bother doing that. West Side Story was just Romeo and Juliet set in New York. I've got one under development right now called The Templars Three which is the Three Musketeers set in modern day at the Vatican. With Plot, don't worry about coming up with something original. You won't. Shakespeare didn't. You or I certainly won't. Instead, worry about making sure that whatever stock, hack, much imitated story you are telling, you tell it well, and with a new and original angle.

That's the 5 elements. Regardless of what the English Lit teachers of the world want students to think, none of them are hard, or mysterious. We use them when we tell stories to our friends, because even that simple story has a moral or a punchline, else you wouldn't be telling it, and that's the theme. It's got characters, plot, setting, and conflict. Easy stuff. Just don't ignore any of them.

Eagle
(I might come back and copy this for a blog)

The big question for writers while writing is why are you writing in the first place?
Are you writing to inform? Or to explore the world around you? To challenge? To think?
Are you writing only because it's your job? Or have the muses touched you to create a story because it needed to be told?
If there is no reason, why should the story be told at all?
If there is no underlining theme, it's no better than just saying "a man walked down the street, THE END." and publishing it.
Writing should have passion behind it, a reason, a why. If there are no reasons, then you might as well be writing textbooks.
I've been writing and creating things for years, never actually being able to finish them, but the journey, the revelations, the character buildings are all a part of me. And those parts of me want to be told to the masses. Even if they don't like it, even if they scorn it, at least the journey is told. Writing with heart means you need a reason, a point, a theme. Otherwise, what's the point of writing at all?

I don't know if I follow this correctly, but I think that's not always the case. If you read my comments about you would see my story's theme is unity. Do I give a damn about unity? Yeah a little, but is it why I'm writing a story...NOPE. Not at all. I write because I want to. I have an idea and instead of saying what would be interesting if a "Marvel did this?" Instead of waiting for someone else to. If I want a story with more African Americans I'll make one but it has nothing to do with theme.

Even though I'm trying to get better at writing I have no interests to make money from it. I'm an artist I love to draw and I'm pretty good at it. But I don't want to make a story with half-baked writing and piss people off because they thought they thought were getting something good. That's why I want to learn to write better. No message just fun.

Long long ago, when I first started writing my story, it was really just a sequence of of cool scenarios loosely tied together. It was godawful.

But eventually, I started noticing particular subtexts to what I was writing. These would become the themes in my story, and while not always (or ever) explicitly touched on, they became a beacon for the plot and characters to follow.

I imagine my characters as dropped together into the middle of a vast rainforest, and they're looking to find a way out. What each character does when faced with whatever obstacle is in front of them is up to their own characteristics, and the plot describes that progression. But whether they head north, south, east or west, or any way in between that's the theme.

So you are essentially saying that you are writing because you want to? But that is your reason. What I was trying to say was that if you are writing without any reason behind it, be it a personal or an external, then there is no point in you writing it at all. There is no theme, or in other words, no underlying reason for creating it. No heart to speak of. And I argue that if a story does not have a heart behind it, which is close to what I stated before, you might as well be writing textbooks for a living.

So then whenever you write something, even if it's just for personal pleasure, you may not be trying to make a point to an audience... rather, it's to yourself.

So even if there is no "theme" or "point" in your story, at least to you, there is some behind your motives, which then could translate into your story anyways, albeit it on a subconscious level. Humanity, in general, has a point to it. It has a theme. So unless you decide to write without any heart, which I doubt you do (but some do because they have to), your writing will have it.

It will be woven into the words you write. The word choices, the biases of your antagonists, the opinions of your protagonists, heck even the length of detail you put in can show your passion for what you're writing. Thus, your point, and the theme, will come with the territory. A story in a sense cannot be a story without some theme coming from the writer, and it would not even be on paper without a point to it being written in the first place.

So even if you want to say theme and making a points are for literature buffs, that's fine. You don't have to worry about them then. Just write what you want to write, and those two literary devices will find their way into the page either way.

But that's not theme though. It can be but it doesn't have to be a message or underlying reason. Like I said my theme for my story is unity or balance. Just as Scythe said, the story without theme was loosely connected scenarios, which is a story and awful but it's still a story. Not a textbook there is more to it than that. A theme ties it together whether it's a message from me or one based on the characters I chose. But I'm done debating this.