Comic format general opinions wanted

[BOMB]

So while I am a graphic designer, I've never advertised myself as a character artist or anything close to it. It takes me forever to draw characters well enough to feel comfortable using them in a project. And I'm well aware that I may be harder on myself, as far as standards go, than other people. In any case, it takes a long time to draw characters or things of the like.

For this reason, I've gravitated towards visual novels. I know people enjoy it more when, in those types of games, characters are drawn with a wide variety of poses and facial expressions. However, in those games I think people are more lenient towards a more finite number of character arts. And this has let me focus more on things like dialog, and emotional descriptions.

With all of this in mind I've tried a few times to take some concepts from visual novel games and translate them into comics. I've tried several times before with varying levels of success and headache. I'm back to try again with a new format.

Nothing here is the finished product, even the characters you see will probably change if/when I make the final. But I think the format and general art style is set. I just want to know:

1. If you can follow what's happening in the story

   1. What do you think of the art style? (the backgrounds are sourced images edited to have more details and fit context, but all of the characters are original and belong to me.)

   2. If this was the first episode of the comic, would you continue reading

[darthmongoose]

I personally wouldn't, because I'm confused by this formatting.

Why are the characters looking at me when they're talking to themselves? Why are they looking at me and not holding a phone when they're on the phone? I don't know it if was even necessary to show the face of the person on the other end of the call, especially when the character having a closed mouth doesn't get across "speaking".

It feels like you're trying to reinvent the wheel by breaking a bunch of design conventions of comics without there being an obvious reason to. Like having speech bubbles without tails, strings of speech bubbles from the same person without connecting them, or very large gaps between panels that flow horisontally. If you're determined to do this visual novel style presentation, I'd recommend at least having everything else about the presentation be as conventional and easy to get into as possible to reassure the audience.

I think a comic in this format could work if it was told in a way where the format of the characters talking at the audience as a sort of third person observer was part of the story to make it make sense. Homestuck is told with video-game-like sprites that can be reused and text logs for dialogue, and makes it work because it was a suggestion comic kind of taking place in a video game that affects the real world, and the characters are all separated and communicate through chat apps. Carmilla, the live action web series, was a story where the framing device was that it was a vlog, so the characters always speaking to the camera, or interacting in small rooms facing the camera made sense. Visual novels, everyone faces the player and emotes at the player because the player character is in the scene and being spoken to, and it's a limitation VN writers need to be creative with, always making sure there's a way to have the player observe and be told important stuff, and using CGs for scenes where that format can't work.

There are comics that reuse the same assets over and over, like Dinosaur Comics, Wondermark, Elf Only Inn, any sprite comic you can name, but a key thing about them is they tend to use character assets that are facing more to the side and looking in front of them, not out at the reader, so it can be easily made to look like they're talking to and looking at each other. A bunch of popular comics in a more conventional style reuse certain head poses and expressions a bunch without formatting their comic in a weird VN-like way, because there are a bunch of generic poses that get reused a lot in comics.

The whole point of a comic is that the art tells the story, so if your aim is to tell a story in a way where you can reuse a pool of premade assets, I'd recommend either coming up with a story where the characters always talking to a third person audience stand-in (like, it's a video log, or the reader is a person in the scene), or create assets more designed for the characters speaking to each other, so facing and looking to the side, and with symmetrical designs so they can be flipped to face wither way easily.

[moontokkym]

I wouldn't either, same as Kate. The phone especially really confused me. I looked at the panels before I read your explanation - which is what most readers will do if you publish on tapas - and I was really lost about the choices you'd made until I read what you said about visual novels.

I think you might be better off actually making a visual novel in visual novel format. It's relatively simple to code a visual novel if you don't mind the code being a bit janky as a beginner (assuming you don't already have some basics), and you'll immediately negate all of the problems I'm going to talk about.

In this format it takes me out of any kind of immersion I have on every panel, even down to the font being one of those 2010s Samsung phone preset fonts.

The panel format you've used reminds me most of comic strips: rectangular and square panels in neat lines with a title at the top each page and a repeating back and forth wide shot. I'm expecting a punchline at the end, a Garfield-esque gag, but that's obviously not the genre you're going for.

Like Kate said it can work but you have to do a lot of framing work to make it work and get people into the gimmick. The main problem you're wrestling with is that a comic book in genres other than comic strip is based on visual storytelling first, no long descriptions of places, just a few panels of the scenery. No descriptions of character actions, you can see them doing it. No descriptions of smells or feelings or temperature, they're saying "wow this place reaks" while crying and shivering. A lot of comics work more like silent films than novels. Whereas visual novels are novels, they are based on textual storytelling, the visual part is just to help with your imagination, like a step up from a novel that has it's chapter headers illustrated. Most visual novels would still more or less work without the visual, they might be less creepy, or less detailed, or a bit flat in the description department but you'd still know where you are, who you're talking to, what they're doing, etc... Add to that translation issue the fact you're also removing the element of player agency which in any media is really difficult to navigate (see all failed videogame films).

So trying to transpose visual novel language to comics in this way without also translating the drama and feeling you want through camera angles and shot choice isn't compensating for the personal implication the reader already has in visual novels that you've lost by not making them the main character. Too many things are lost in translation. I think you can make it work, just not in it's current form and you're going to have to do a lot of thinking about how to translate what's good while compensating for what's lost.

[Kelheor]

This was really confusing, because I had to read the pages 2 times before I even realized it was not 3 different choices of answer to the "Break up with him" on the first page or whatever question on the second page. Probably because that's how visual novels work and you did a good job on this part, but that's just not how the comic would work. I can assume one can make a comic with the idea of visual novel, but it needs another step further, probably more original thinking on how it should look like.

[Azifri]

Maybe you could turn this into a website where it reads like an actual visual novel because it looks great to me. I have no problem following it or understanding what's going on. I know some use Ren'Py to create visual novels and they seem to like it, I have never used it myself though.

Now, if this was a comic, I would not read it but not because of the style. It's just that I don't like romance stories ^^

[BOMB]

I appreciate the opinions.

I will give a bit of insight to some of my choices tho.

1. You are right that I was inspired a bit by classic comic stripes, which is in large part why most things are blocked out the way they are from the title at the top to the different panels being squared off.

2. I'm assuming you didn't pick up on it, but the reason the characters look out instead of to the side is because they are talking to each other. One character is standing on one side of the room, while the other is on the other side. I'm using the different panels to basically flip the camera around every time they speak.

3. The lack of strings for the speech bubbles is because I'm bringing in visual novel elements, specifically how in most games the image is above a text box that displays what characters are saying. The main character uses the text box while the side character uses the bubbles here because I'm experimenting with how far I can mix elements from a game and from a comic.

4. In the phone scene, he's not having a phone call, he's deleting a phone number. The phone is there to show the process of him doing it. We also see how long its taking him to actually go through with it by the time displayed on the phone, but that could be over looked.

I'm aware there are other comics that utilize reused assets, I'm also aware I could just make a visual novel game. I could also just make a regular comic. But that's the thing, I'm already making a regular comic, and I already make visual novels. The point of this project is specifically to create a comic inspired by visual novel formating. It's not going to be an easy thing, and it may seem I'm trying to reinvent the wheel, but it's fun to play with formatting. When I eventually make it work it'll be all the better.

[BOMB]

Yeah, it's a work in progress. Like I said, this wasn't my first attempt, and it probably won't be my last. But I was confident. It's kinda like creating a new language. Being the person crafting everything, naturally I understand everything perfectly, but that's why I brought my test page here. So I could see how well if at all other people could pick up the language. From the looks of it, I'll have to go back over it.

[river121693]

I took me a second to register the format but I wasn't confuse. I actually think it's kinda cool, cuz I've never seen visual novels laid out like this.

I'm just not sure if it's a good trade off here. The format takes more mental navigation than typical comics and I can see readers feeling more burnt out reading multiple pages of this than a typical comic. At the same time, it doesn't have the animation and movements of characters of a VN to help with navigation.

It doesn't have either enough images of a comic or text of a VN to convey emotions either. I could think of many ways these scenes play out in a normal comic that conveys more emotions while being more succinct. The second pg, for example, the MC could be drawn to be staring at his phone, then tossing the phone away without making a decision to delete Ned from his context and stuffing his head into a pillow. It may saves time, but you're also sacrificing a lot of benefits from both medium, and audience wouldn't chose something inbetween.

I think a better way to achieve what you want is the good-ol illustrationed novels, where you get more detailed images every few pages.

If you want to keep experimenting tho, I think adding tails and connectors to the text bubbles would be clearer than the colored bubble and help with the reading flow. Or make the color more prominent. It's kind of hard to see rifght now.

[BOMB]

I actually already currently make visual novels. That's part of the reason why I want to make a comic inspired by them. I could try to use a format that's already been proven for similar projects before me, but I like the idea of creating my own formula. It won't be an easy or fast process, but it's fun.

If you want to check out my games by the way

Monsters and Me by BlackDoor

[BOMB]

You're right, this current format is limited in how much text it has and illustration as well, but I'm still confident that I can find a way to make things work. In all honesty, I've already found ways that work, but they didn't achieve my goal.

In one iteration I basically made frame by frame images that were exactly what you'd find in a visual novel which a lot of people immediately understood the inspiration of. But that didn't feel right because I was basically making a visual novel where instead of clicking, people where scrolling. It wasn't inspired it was just...re-creating.

In another iteration I was able to make a comic that read like a comic with the use of limited sprites, but it was a difficult thing to sew any of the visual novel inspiration.

This current test may not be perfect, but I gotta keep trying if I want to find the sweet spot.

[river121693]

If this help: I think if you put the MC dialog box inside his panel, it'll make navigation easier. People typically read individual panel as it's own thing. Merging the text box with the image will make me read them as one, rather than wondering "do I read the text box next or go to the right panel then hop down to the text box?"

Also, the art style is cool. The clean-ess of the art definitely helps with clarity

[darthmongoose]

Uhhhh.... Okay, mate.

If you ask for advice, and a bunch of seasoned comics creators, many of them with a pretty sizeable audience, or who have had Tapas features, successful print campaigns, or worked professionally in the industry all say something like, "I don't think this can work in the present format" and your response is to try to tell them why it totally works actually and they clearly just don't get it, I don't know how to help you.

If people this passionate about comics, who love making and reading comics are confused, the casual readers who make up most of the Tapas audience are only going to have a harder time, because they put less effort into trying to understand a comic than we do. You will not have the ability to explain to readers how to read your comic when you're not on a forum and able to respond to people saying they don't get it by explaining what you were going for. If what you were going for, and more importantly, why you were going for that, is not immediately apparent without explanation, you have a problem to fix.

If you're not going to listen to my advice, all I can say is...well, good luck, 'cause you can't keep asking for advice and then telling people the advice you wanted them to give you, which is basically "yes, keep doing what you're doing!" If you know there are issues already, fix them. If you don't want to be told something doesn't work because you have such strong conviction that it does you think you'll prove us all wrong, don't ask for advice and just let the audience vote with their feet.

[BOMB]

That's a good idea. I'll check it out

[BOMB]

I'm not sure what you're responding to. I never said it completely worked lol. I was just giving some more insight into my thought process, and I even acknowledge how you were right about some of my inspirations.

Now I will say, despite how much you may not like how my format currently looks, and how you think it may be a lost cause, I'm still going to work at it to try to make it better.

But to be fair, I never asked for advice, I asked for general opinions. I wasn't sure if anyone could read my format as clearly as I could or if they'd like the art, so I came here to get those answers. I wasn't looking for someone to tell me "this can't work, so don't bother doing it" I heard your feedback and I'll use it to improve, but I'm not just going to give up. This isn't my first iteration and won't be my last.

Besides, this is a side project for me. Most of my main work is in novels, novellas, and short stories. Even if it is reinventing the wheel, I'm doing it for fun.

[NickRowler]

I remember you posting a comic awhile ago that was structured in a similar way and I remember telling you the format was confusing.

I think if you really wanted to lean into the VN aesthetic, why not format the comic to look more obviously like one? VNs will label the dialogue boxes with the character’s names because it makes it easier to understand.

If the issue is you are using limited assets because you are struggling with drawing, why not make your story a novel with illustrations formatted like a VN?

If you are trying to emulate American newspaper comics, which sometimes recycle poses, I would recommend maybe looking more into how they are formatted. I think of a comic like Foxtrot which looks very cookie cutter yet the shots are set up in a way that you can tell the characters are having a conversation.

[BOMB]

I've actually done this before, I've made iterations that we're basically formated just like VNs but I didn't go with that because in that case I might as well just make a VN, which I already do.

I'm combining several things and looking for a sweet spot between all of them. It's a long process at the moment. But I'm enjoying it.

[NickRowler]

But I am talking about the lack of clarity in the comic. Even if you don’t want it to look 100% like a VN, it’s still difficult to understand who is talking and what is going on. That is why I also recommend the newspaper comics.

You could also try things like color coded bubbles. I have also seen people make little emoji-like versions of their characters and stuck them in the corner of dialogue balloons. Tho honestly the easiest would be adding tails.

[moontokkym]

In that case you're really going to have to adapt more to the comic format, because right now you're doing a "square peg round hole approach", uncompromisingly trying to force in codes and readings that simply do not work in comics right now and are not going to work in the current form you've given them. Coming to a different format and going "I'm going to do things my way and it will work because I said so" never really works unless a whole lot of work goes into understanding where you're coming from and where you want to be and building that bridge.

I saw you assumed Kate didn't pick up on the fact the characters are talking to eachother... That's not a great assumption judging by her message... It's obvious that they are and if you look at comics done by many creators, we also do that camera switch back and forth depending on who's talking... But the character isn't looking straight out at the reader they're looking at who they're talking to, like in film.

Seriously, film language is way closer to comic book language nowadays. Look into the rules about looking at the camera and the 4th wall and what happens when those rules are broken, and how breaking them is used. You're trying to produce an effect while breaking the rule that specifically creates that effect. I'm not entirely sure why you want to try doing comics when you're reticent to do any of the work that goes into comics nor the research that's needed to do so.

Like you say you're inspired by comic strips but your narrative seems to be serious drama based while comic strips tend to be humour, satire and sometimes slice of life. People are expecting a punchline, you're not delivering one. You're setting yourself up for disappointed readers...

[thepenmonster]

There is an audience for more challenging comics.

And while most people are terrified to blame the audience for things, I'm not: Most comics are not challenging because most of the audience are not up to the mildest of challenges. The public are babies who want to be fed pablum with a rubber spoon. The same holds true for all entertainment media. That's why the audience for even mildly challenging work is always small.

However, comics are a form of language and you do need to be clear in how you "speak" even with challenging comics. Your second page is a lot closer to the dating sim visuals you're creating. The first page just looks like you added thought balloons/ narration boxes in a wonky way.

[BoomerZ]

If you have to explain your themes, your story, or how to read your comic, I'm going to be blunt and say you failed and it's not working. One, you will not be around to do such things. You hand over your work and an audience judges it. You are literally not around to make your case. Two, the audience will give you one chance. As soon as they are confused, they will leave. The only reason people are giving you feedback is this is a forum and you asked for it. People are going out of their way to help you. In the wild, the reader just moves on and never comes back.

Your job as a comic writer is to entertain, not reinvent the wheel. You tell a story. That is king, not how you present it. There is a reason comics as a storytelling medium is done the way it is done, because it's the best way to push the story to the reader. Now if you want to make a moving comics or a web interactive comics, maybe other storytelling devices will work. But for static art, the audience expects a certain way to read them. Give that to them.