10 / 10
Jun 2022

I have a theory that music theory and storytelling are somewhat related, in that with music can also structured like a story.
However I know nothing about music theory lol
Was wondering if any music experts out there could give any insight?

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I´m a musician / producer / composer / song writer and comic artist / illustrator.
Both have a lot in common but I wouldn´t consider myself a good writer even though I consider
myself a good songwriter.

A song is often a short story and an album can be a collection of short stories.
But those stories are usually very short and have a different structure than other stories
I went out drinking with my friends, I saw a girl at the bar and asked her to drink with me,
the jukebox was playing and we were all singing along. Taken from "Hey Bartender"
Many songs only have one single, simple message and there are many song examples where
the story behind doesn´t matter at all as long as it´s catchy, the listener often doesn´t understand
the meaning behind it or it´s not necessary to understand the meaning behind it.

Having a good feeling for rhythm helps with drawing in general and also knowing how to train
helps with drawing

Well... I'm not a music "expert", but I do have a degree in literature and some grounding in the basics of composition.

I think I'd say that the crossover is there... but it's so abstract and high level that it only really comes into play if you've also mastered all the stuff specific to those fields too, which is a huge amount to learn and may consume all a person's time and energy.

So like a story, a piece of music should:
Establish theme and tone, take the audience through a journey that keeps weaving in those themes, and set up and then satisfyingly tie off different elements to create a satisfying emotional experience.

The problem is, what the elements are is totally different. On an abstract level, yes, a character and a leitmotif serve the same purpose, but on a practical level, learning to write a character and learning to write a leitmotif are totally different skills. My knowledge of literary structure may help me plan the general vibe of a piece of music, and the different moods I want it to move through... but it won't magically help me know time signatures, or choose what mode to use for my chord progressions, or give me insight into the range of different instruments or how to construct a rhythm.
Or in reverse, knowing how to write a symphony will probably help a composer to plan out the overall journey of a story, and the feelings they want it to move through, but won't magically let them know whether to write in 3rd or 1st person, how to use language effectively, write a natural feeling conversation, or similar skills specific to writing.

Really, when we're talking at such high level, any skill could potentially enhance other skills. For example, I know that the discipline of classical musicians and the care they take as well as their excellent hand-eye coordination often makes them good artists, but then, engineers often make great artists and composers too due to their attention to detail and consistent sense of structure. Comedians often make good musical performers and vice versa because of their sense of timing and strong emotional expression and improv skills. So if you want to be a good writer, learning almost any skills outside of writing may improve your writing so long as you also keep working on learning writing skills and gaining experience in writing too.

Not an expert by any means, but oh yes, very much yes - after dabbling in composing for a little bit I see so many parallels.

I don't naturally have a good sense for music; I'm not someone who can just pull a nice-sounding melody out of my arse and those musicians who can just improvise on a keyboard are like magicians to me (just like linear pantsers who always know what to write next XD). So in fact the only way I can compose at all is to approach it from a storytelling angle.

With stories, I usually think of the most impactful, climactic scenes first and then arrange them in a fitting order and build the rest of the story to support those scenes and build them up. With music, I've found after some stumbling around that I'm partial to starting with some really intense 'feels', for instance:
- "the world is just awesome" (wonder)
- "you're a good person, please don't beat yourself up" (gentleness)
- "I must persist I must persist I must persist, " (madness/obsession)
- "I will lead you to salvation ...!" (grandiosity)

I like having a sentence so it doesn't end up being generic (e.g. 'love' is kind of generic but there's a difference between "your smile is so precious" and "I can't keep my hands off you"). It doesn't have to end up literally being lyrics for your music (if you even choose to have any), but I do feel it helps me come up with a musical 'phrase' that captures the 'feels'. Gather up a few of those phrases, assign them 'scene'/'chapters' in the piece of music, build on them; it really is kind of like how I write stories. (Though I'm sure different people approach it in different ways, much like story writing :'D)

Song aren't necessarily 'linear' like a story, in that the melody doesn't have to correspond to the events of an actual scenario. For instance, I'm trying to compose a leitmotif for one of my characters and the 'chapters' of the piece goes as follows: gentle -> slipping into madness -> grandiose/inspired. The character's story in my comic doesn't really follow this trajectory; it's more just what feels fitting for their character and what feels epic musically. I liked the idea of a gentle tune gradually getting more distorted, marking how the character's devotion to being kind all the time is taking a toll on them, and then transitioning to the 'grandiose' section with an epic swell, informing the tone of their delusions as a saviour figure. (Oops, did I accidentally go all English class analysis on a character that hasn't appeared anywhere yet? XD)

Music theory has some crossover with mathematics. I guess you could create a formula for storytelling (ex. three act structure), but I don’t think it is exactly the same as what you learn in music theory. Plus bad writing is sometimes accessed as being “formulaic”. You probably could get a robot to write a story but it might come out a bit soulless.

Not an expert, but: I agree that the two skills are somewhat related...or rather, the two art forms are related. Storytelling skills do not translate directly to music skills (I learned this the hard way...) or vice versa, but when you already have both skillsets, it's possible to go about using them similarly.

You could even break it down like this:

Introduction <-> Hook
Exposition/Rising Action <-> First Chorus
Climax <-> Bridge
Resolution/Falling Action <-> Last Chorus
Conclusion <-> Outro

Even in music that doesn't really have 'choruses'-- for instance, video game music, my specialty-- you have a structure sort of like this for each loop...In fact, I think any art form that includes the dimension of time will probably have a similar structure, of bringing the audience in, giving them things to pay attention to, and then easing them out of the experience.

I'm of the mindset that if a song makes you feel something, it's telling a story and you're having a reaction to it.

Just like anything creative, you gotta establish a tone, set the scene, make the working pieces fit together, find your pacing, have a resolution, explore themes if there's lyrics.. Technically, this can be done by anyone without any prior knowledge, but ideally it's best if you learn the basics and build off of that.

A musician's understanding of music theory can be compared to our understanding of the English language. You don't necessarily need to understand the intricacies in order to use it, but you know when it sounds good enough for you to use as a means of expressing yourself. Learning chords, scales, rhythms, and progressions... that's just another set of vocabulary, but for music.

Some people will reject the idea of learning and creating a better understanding of music theory of fear that their creative endeavors will become formulaic or severely limiting. Most musicians I've seen who've learned more about it however, tend to view music theory as a toolbag. Essentially, they learned the fundamentals and their functions, and are now free to use them however they want.

So, bringing it back to storytelling, that has its own rules and standards as well. It's not a one-to-one parallel but, but you can definitely use the music vocabulary to make a story in the same way, with dynamics, structure, tone and all that good stuff :relieved:

When it comes to poetry and dance, both are composed and measured by counting structures.
Largely due to roots in pre-hellenic Numbering Systems and Fractions.

Oh, oh, also; I just watched this video about composing music and I was like 'this is so very story writing advice it's not even funny'! To prove my point, here are the parallels:

  • 00:42 I don't have any ideas, and when I do have ideas, they are always rubbish
    -> accept that your first idea is rubbish and write it down anyway, it's easier to edit a crappy first draft that's already there!

  • 03:02 I've got an idea but I don't know how to take it further
    -> come up with more ideas (scenes) and don't worry too much about how they connect (what happens 'next') just yet; eventually you'll find some of those ideas just naturally fit together!

  • 05:19 My pieces end up a bit of a jumble of different ideas, they lack coherence
    -> don't be afraid to just take one idea and focus in it, even if you worry about it overplaying it! you don't need to shower the audience with a whole bunch of different stuff/themes/moods/events for fear of them getting bored!

  • 07:46 Why does my piece sound a bit muddy, a bit lacking in life
    -> shake up the status quo if your story! (aside: I also see an art analogy which is 'put more contrast in your illustration!')

  • 10:39 I've got ideas, but what form should I use? I've no idea how to handle form
    -> Forms are tools, not prisons! Want your story to fit the hero's journey? How does that structure help you achieve the vision you have, to really emphasize the points of impact you want it to have?

  • 14:03 I find transitions really really hard
    -> How to get from Scene A to Scene B? ... well, I guess this point isn't as relevant to storytelling; imo it's not as important for a scene to 'smoothly' lead into the next scene and it's usually okay to abruptly cut to the next scene, unlike in music where it would be jarring. In fact, I think I've become better at writing once I've ditched the need for 'transitions' in my writing, which often just end up being boring filler XD

  • 16:32 Why doesn't my piece seem well written for the instrument.
    -> Choosing the right medium for your story. Comics? Novels? Art style/prose style? Basically know your choices of medium/instrument and what moods/cultural implications etc they bring with them

  • 18:06 Those other people are geniuses and I'm obviously not, should I just give up?
    -> Seeing your flaws is a sign that you're competent, don't compare yourself to others, ditch the fixed mindset 'genius' notion and embrace growth mindset etc etc. All creative fields relate on this point! :'D

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closed Jun 20, '22

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