One thing I think you have to consider is who is taking the most risk. If you collaborate with an artist and it doesn't work out, then you can take your story and find another artist. Or you write a novel from it.
The artist, however, all of that work is at best part of a portfolio. All of their time spent for your project was a waste.
Thank you for posting the list of how much an electric pipe organ costs by the way. Just gotta break into a church and then I'll be rich (once of course I can figure out how to carry that massive sucker out of there)
100 pounds away from the 1000lb club! My intention wasn't to guilt anyone, In my early days as a writer I worked a lot of collabs that just didn't go anywhere and I've done a lot. Sure I grew as a writer but after a while the process of doing projects that don't go anywhere gets to you and ultimately contributed to burnout. So that's why I for the most part work mostly by myself, since
I set my own due dates.
I choose what I can write about.
I'm the only person accountable.
I will stand by my point about the creative ecosystem though. Writers aren't given the same exposure and are often presented as "idea guys" who don't do much for the project. Same goes for editors, VAs and other skills who I feel people really don't give much credit as well but my point wasn't to guilt trip.
Thanks for wishing me luck! I have a new anthology that ties into my comic coming out on Tapas in a few days so check that out lol.
I am teaching myself how to draw actually, anyone can draw don't let yourself be discouraged by the concept of "Talent" a mindset I had to get out of myself.
I've tried smaller projects too, but you also have to remember that just because you had a good experience doesn't negate my point. I just think they should be avoided by beginners, if you know and trust some one and you vibe ofc it may have a higher chance of working out. Also I really don't like that people are assuming I had 1 bad day and gave up lol, i've been at this for years now. I've had some collabs workout sometimes but the vast majority didn't.
2.I've actually started studying drawing since then and made a lot of improvement. It's been a while since I posted that and both artistically and psychologically I'm doing a lot better. I draw more consistently now and I write more consistently now. Still, my opinion is still my own.
I've done collabs since then and that's how I eventually came to this opinion, they didn't workout or the process was just messy.
I don't really like that people have decided to assume so much about me based on older threads. Hence why I have tried to delete some of them. I've changed a lot since then, just because I didn't post about those changes didn't mean they didn't happen.
You're a total stranger on the internet, what you let people see is what you are to them. Sadly, if you don't want people to assume things about you then you gotta take care of your own image. Not to mention that the way you phrased your thread seemed extremely entitled, you were also belittling and comparing abilities, making ones above others. Venting in public has these kind of consequences, so it's important to choose your words wisely if you don't want people to assume or get wrong ideas.
It's a shame some collaborations didn't work for you, but bad experiences are not a must, nor a guarantee that they won't work out, but it seems that again, you're probably not choosing wisely when it comes to another individual, another total stranger on the internet that won't follow the same structure and rules as you, whose concept of perfectionism won't align to yours, and that you, need to also be understanding that your goals won't be necessarily the others, same for perfomance and way to do things.
That's why there are proper procedures, proper questions, digging up as much as possible before doing a compromise, that's why you ask, that's why you take a time to decide before jumping in blindly.
If you're a perfectionist then you'll be perfectionist even for an application or a collaboration. But sometimes you'll need to understand that when it comes to your own, stand-alone work, sometimes there is a limit about what can you polish, and other times you'll have to give in and set a limit to your own perfectionism if you want to have a product.
You're still young, you need to learn to be flexible.
Honestly, I would agree that many of your points are valid:
1) As much as it is exciting, collabs here aren't tailored for beginner creators.
2) Collabs usually don't work out, yes.
3) Writers, editors, VAs, and other creative skills should all be valued.
4) Talent is, more or less, just a concept that a good few of us can break out of.
I can see your intention in sharing these points, using your own experiences as a writer. They are good and I honestly believe that this will benefit the community. However, I, and probably a few others, would suggest that it is done in a more diplomatic way.
For instance, here are the two biggest things to consider:
The use of phrases that lean more towards an absolute disagreement is how many people misunderstood your intentions, and probably why you felt hurt that people assumed you gave up after a bad day. It might be better to reword a few things, such as your title. Something like "Collaboration tips for beginning writers." might've changed the whole direction of this thread, and people would've understood your intentions better.
Disagreeing and being stubborn on certain topics, even though they have valid points, is also a thing that could be changed. The topics that seemed to get the most thrashing are "Talent" and "The creative ecosystem". Please consider the other side before making a firm declaration, as people could take offense to this, and we want to foster a more open-minded community.
For instance, on the topic of talent, it is true that the effort you put in and the mindset you have are key. However, when you take on every perspective, there are many factors other than effort and mindset.
Firstly, search up the (presumed) non genitic condition: Aphantasia. As a caveat, there are artists that managed to break through this through sheer effort, but this should be considered.
Secondly, talent isn't limited to your internal self, but also your environment and opportunities you had.
Thirdly, not everyone has the time to develop and focus on drawing, nor the equal ability to learn it quickly. Studies show that different people take more or less time to develop certain skills. (Look into the study by Ayako Sakakibara)
Please don't take this as a "shame on you". I honestly believe in your good intentions and just wanted to help you improve by giving objective feedback. (atleast as objective as it can be.) I'm not trying to tell you to change your ways or anything. You are you, and I will respect that. This is more to clarify your intentions to others, and to help you improve as we help each other improve, cause no one is perfect, and even I have my own flaws and presuppositions that I need to break out of.
Yeah, i'll delete those post. I don't agree that my phrasing was entitled though. I'll take your critique about my perfectionism, but other than that. That's all I have to say. I'll just let my work speak for me.
Take it from someone with an extensive history of being misunderstood for longer than you've been alive; if people are interpreting what you say a certain way, even if your intention isn't to mean it that way, it's still your responsibility that this is how it was read. At least when the general consensus has that misconception. Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride, apologize, and move on.
It's a lesson even the best of us have to keep practicing, but better start sooner than later, when all your bridges might be burned.
I'll apologize for my past post and how this was worded, but not for my opinion about collabs. From what I've seen only a handful of comments were actually constructive and the rest were just digs at myself. I don't think anything I've said warranted this kind of reaction.
Again, yes, it is not totally on you. People should've held back more. However, these people (@candiedcotton and @RedLenai) are trying to help you avoid that. Also, no one is saying that you don't have a right to an opinion. No one is saying that you need to apologize for having your opinions.
However, this up here isn't an apology, and I feel strongly about this topic, so hate me if you want.
If you want to apologize, apologies don't have caveats or explanations. Those are excuses.
It's like saying, "I'm sorry I punched you in the face, but you did piss me off in the first place, and that's why I beat you."
It's better to just say an apology, even if you're just apologizing for your phrasing and leaving out the caveat of your opinion. People will usually give you the benefit of the doubt, so just giving a straight "I'm sorry" has much more impact than "I'm sorry, but...."
Trust me, it doesn't work. I was that kid, and I have literally used that type of excuse. That's why the action pisses me off so much. I have regretfully ruined my relationship with my family just because I wanted to be right and have the last word. So please, learn from my experience as I have learned from your experience in collabs.
The choice is up to you.
I don't hate anyone here man. If a handful of people are pissed off at me over something asinine that's fine. Sorry, though.
You're basically telling people to do something because you had a bad experience and you're negating those that actually do have it.
And here you're contradicting yourself, because literally anyone can tell you that just because you had bad experiences doesn't negate the point of others that collaborations can actually work if with proper care and done correctly
Obviously, begginers lack a lot of the things to properly make a collaboration fruitful, but experience comes by trying and experiencing things. You're going to fail in everything more times than you'll actually win, and this is on everything, not only collabs. Because there is something called learning involving, getting experience, getting knowledge, getting skill, getting plannification, getting new tools, etc.
Is like playing with a character that has never been leveled up and complaining that you're being killed several times even on the first levels, or because you're playing it for the very first time.
As much as I agree, I think it might be best if we stop it there, or else things might get out of hand. Seems like they understand enough of what they're responsible for, and it's up to them to change. Clearly, we're not gonna change their opinions, or their sense of responsibility, overnight, and this is already a lot to chew on.
You bring up fair points though, and consistency is a good skill to have.
closed Oct 29, '22
