Don’t bother with collaborations

By checking your older threads I'll be very honest on this, but I believe you need to know it because that attitude won't do much for you no matter what kind of path you decide to approach

1. You always seek the most shady, red flag, incomplete, unprofessional, from dead/inactive/sus accounts, obviously you won't achieve anything if you go after something that won't be serious in the first place. Read the other replies, read about those making all the right questions before jumping blindly just to have their expectations crushed be it because it went nowhere or simply they ghosted you or are no longer interested in a thread that the person probably did on impulse or the backlash finally got them and made them realize what they've been asking was unrealistic and unfair.

2. You always seem to be on a rush to get your projects done, YOUR stuff done. You're already in denial that you won't improve in art and even said that you're too late to start learning just because you've been doing this for 4 years without improving much, despite you were 17 last year when you complained about that. You don't need to be good to take an idea out of your head, you won't improve if you only focus on theory, a lot of it comes from the constancy, the practice and the compromise. A lot of people improve not because they study or watch a tutorial or are making doodles on their notebooks for 4 years, a lot of them improve when they are already working in a comic, be it theirs, with a friend, a collab, etc.

I believe, you should really re-read the advice from senior artists you've received on your other thread regarding collaborations and your skills.

But I'll say this because I'm the most skeptical artist over there. You say you're "experienced" as a writer and script writer, but I see no work of yours?
Not posting in Tapas or any writer-hosting platform, no free to read samples, no links, no nothing, to me if you don't have a portfolio to show then it's the same as having nothing, trying to dig up stuff through DMs is the same as wasting time, and a lot of people won't even bother in messaging you if they themselves can't reach your stuff.

Same for artists, I'll never get those who don't even use their own artwork as profile pics, banners or won't even have a link to their portfolio or where they dump their artwork but I believe it's more because I'm a "Provide everything in a golden plate" kind of person, especially when it comes to paid work or if I want to look professional.

And if you're too afraid that your story is going to get stolen, then buddy, let me tell you that unless you're very talented or very famous, no one is gonna bother. So, post your work before you get the chance to say that someone else stole your idea.

I sure am glad there are a lot of good comments here because I'm not nearly as nice as these folks. I'll keep most of my thoughts to myself.

However, I will say I've worked in the industry for over twenty years. I've had two novels published-- not self-published, but by discovery from a publisher, with actual profits-- and I've also done commissioned art to pay my bills for a long time. I'm no Michelangelo but I've got a lot of experience.

I can say without a single doubt it has taken ten times more work to reach my current abilities in art as it has in writing. Writing tends to come rather naturally and though it can be lengthy work and even tedious, it does not -remotely- compare to the effort it takes (again, from my personal experience) to get to a decent level in drawing.

Perhaps you ought to appreciate your artists a little more.

I realize this may smell of bitterness but oh boy have I held back. lol.

Really hillarious that someone drew this

I don´t feel different about this story compared to other superhero comics

I think it should also be said that it's a lot easier to determine the quality of an artist's work ahead of time than that of a writer. While both can offer samples of their work, it seems like it's really hard to find proper scripts and synopsis in the collab threads I've seen. I'd also say maybe one in twenty or so have had stories I found worthwhile.

That isn't to say there isn't a ton of artists looking for work who should probably get their skills at a better quality if they want to find said work (it's probably the majority as well and this is in most communities with collab/for-hire posts), but it's easier to weed through them. Trying to determine if a script/story is worth sinking time in as an artist (especially if you aren't being commissioned) pretty much requires going over the whole script itself. And a LOT of the stuff coming from the "looking for artist" posts doesn't even offer an actual script or story at all. Over half of the few that do have no idea how to write in script format and the artist shouldn't have to take apart a novel to make it into a script themselves. Writing a book is not the same as writing a comic script. Scenes and events that read well in a book might translate very poorly when drawn in panels. So that really makes it incredibly difficult to find a decent writer.

Personally I would be thrilled to collab with a writer, and I'd be fine to do it for free just for the pleasure of the experience. It's been quite a long time since I've done so, however, because it feels like nobody has any idea how to script for a comic.

"Anecdote=evidence", "only romance is popular", "no one wants to pay writers", techbro moment at the end, Bingo! Where's my prize?

All i can say is that when it comes to collaborations is important to choose wisely the people you work with.

It's way easier to find a good squad and focus on your vision if you are willing to pay tho

Before recruiting someone make sure to check their portfolio (sometimes their comic can work as one too), and to get to know their work ethics. The people i hire are skilled, honest and disciplined, and before any commitment i made sure that was the case.

Getting people to commit to work for free is way harder, specially for a long time, they gotta get something out of the deal.

Some people agree to go on percentages of profits, but that is hard to pull off if you don't have a solid way to prove that the project has the potential for it.

Looks like someone had a bad day and is projecting their personal issues onto the whole community of artists/writers, do you need to take a nap?

Ah, I see. Another issue with payment during a collaboration. Fear not, my friend. I've got an easy three-step solution for earning money without requiring a real job.

Step 1: Look up how much organs cost

4231fabf13a9f927e02c7fcd11bd2225.jpg527x763 38.8 KB

Step 2: Give your partner a visit

Step 3: Sell and profit

And there you go. No more money problems. Hope this helps.^^

(Serious reply: What I've learned over the years is when you need something done right, do it yourself. You may have problems and need to learn some stuff on your own, but you save more money and brain cells that way, rather than relying on others.)

It only took me one attempt to do a collaboration here (almost 2 years ago) to realize what is REALLY at stake and what a proper collaboration should comprise of for it to be fair and productive. After that, I stopped asking for one not because it made me bitter, but rather, I just understood what all it takes and it would be overwhelming to follow through with, so I backed away. Ever since then I just focused on improving my craft.

You could, you know, do the same. Posting here doesn't help anyone, including yourself.

If it helps you to know, here on Tapas I've participated in two comic collaborations, plus a few others that were standalone images. Of my 2 comic collabs, one worked out quite well and we managed to finish a 6-page Christmas-themed comic. The other was supposed to be a 10-page romance/scifi/drama comic - we did the script but then motivation faded and that was the end of the collab. Based on my little experience doing collaborations I'd say go for something small, with clear limits, and where everyone is actually a collaborator who contributes roughly the same to the project (a writer, after done writing, can still help gather references, doing promo on social media, etc). Also, since collaborations are for free, it has to be something that motivates everyone and is done for fun. Make it sound like work and I know I'd disappear in a heartbeat. If you want to do a large project using free labor... I'm honestly not sure that'll work out ^^

I think the inherent issue with collaborations is that... like anything else in life, it only really works if two people are on the same page and have reason to trust and respect each other. I think a lot of amateur comic writers don't realize that what they're doing is essentially the equivalent of running up to a stranger on the street and going "LET'S START A COMPANY TOGETHER, I HAVE AN AWESOME IDEA FOR ONE! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE THOUGH, AND I HAVE NO IDEA THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE HUNDREDS OF UNPAID HOURS OF OUR TIME (MOSTLY YOURS ) BEFORE WE CAN EVEN KNOW IF THIS COMPANY IS A SUCCESS!" Like... who the f is gonna say yes to that? Maybe a few living-it-large people with no fear might, but good luck stumbling across them by chance (also they may also only stick around until a better living-it-large offers comes by, and then they'll be gone, since the living-it-large lifestyle was the only reason they agreed in the first place).

Start-ups (and collaborations) usually happen between friends or acquaintances who are also professionally-involved (my uncle's imaging company was formed by him and a couple of his fellow PhD students while he was getting his doctorate). Even in situations where the collaborators may not initially know each other, they would have typically heard OF each other in their professional endeavors. In the context of art forums, this may be people who have spoken to one another many times, have seen bits and pieces of one another's work before, and are reasonably confident that their interests - and world-views - align enough to build something together that they would both enjoy.

This is where some writers typically go "but I cannae JUST write! I must have pictures that elevate me in internet status that better aligns with the (assuredly) amazing quality of my writing!" And the answer is... you know the golden rule of writing? The "show, don't tell" one? Yeah. SHOW that you're a good writer. Stop telling people about it. You can do that on your own, without pictures. It's called writing in prose, and its market share in English is, well... significantly bigger than all comics combined.

Agreed. I know I'd definitely be stoked to work with a few people I've interacted with here, just because I've seen some of their work and have gotten a feel of their personality just enough that I think we'd get along. That alone is a big bonus to me.

Do you even lift bro?

Jokes aside, honestly I don't think you're wrong. Most of anything that involves multiple people don't wort out. Heck, most stuff that involves only one person don't work out. (Just dig through the graveyard of abandoned webcomics - there are tons :'D)

Getting shit done is hard, and coordinating with people is even harder. If it's not worth it for you, that's fine. If you can find a way to get it done yourself, more power to you. The only thing I take issue with is this line:

, which sort of makes me feel like you're more trying to guilt-trip the creative community for valuing artists above writers, rather than genuinely just trying to inform writers about what's in their best interests. I don't like assuming people's intentions, and if you say that's not your intention, I do believe you; it's just that's how it comes across, if that makes sense

So go, make your comic, show us you're a strong independent writer who don't need no artist. This might sound facetious, but genuinely, I wish you the best of luck. See you on the other side :]

I don't do collaborations mainly because of the demands made I may not get exactly what they want me to do.

I'm mostly a writer but I do draw from time to time. I'm not perfect and would probably never be able to make a comic/manga type comic. I have a lot of respect for artists for their craft and collaborations are a team effort once exceptions are made clear to all parties. The problem I mostly see with some of these collabs that I see is there is unrealistic expectations in there. Collaborations aren't the problem, it's where the parties don't make their expectations clear from that start. Mostly collaborations are supposed to be for fun, rarely about money and they can be short term.

I have done collaborations and always admire the artists on Tapas and other art sites I have been on. Also, writers should stop saying stuff like writing is easy. Sure, everyone can write, but being a good writer takes hard work. Just because you aren't drawing with a pen doesn't mean doing research, studying storytelling and grammar, and learning how to edit isn't work. If you make a bad story, people will not read it even if you have have the best art skills in the world. Your poor storytelling and writing can kill a novel or a comic despite having good art. Both art and writing when it comes to any media work together.

Then again, that's just my opinion.

One thing I think you have to consider is who is taking the most risk. If you collaborate with an artist and it doesn't work out, then you can take your story and find another artist. Or you write a novel from it.

The artist, however, all of that work is at best part of a portfolio. All of their time spent for your project was a waste.

Lift with your legs.
That's the difference.

But complaining and telling other folks it's impossible isn't the right way to go about it.

You're a total stranger on the internet, what you let people see is what you are to them. Sadly, if you don't want people to assume things about you then you gotta take care of your own image. Not to mention that the way you phrased your thread seemed extremely entitled, you were also belittling and comparing abilities, making ones above others. Venting in public has these kind of consequences, so it's important to choose your words wisely if you don't want people to assume or get wrong ideas.

It's a shame some collaborations didn't work for you, but bad experiences are not a must, nor a guarantee that they won't work out, but it seems that again, you're probably not choosing wisely when it comes to another individual, another total stranger on the internet that won't follow the same structure and rules as you, whose concept of perfectionism won't align to yours, and that you, need to also be understanding that your goals won't be necessarily the others, same for perfomance and way to do things.

That's why there are proper procedures, proper questions, digging up as much as possible before doing a compromise, that's why you ask, that's why you take a time to decide before jumping in blindly.
If you're a perfectionist then you'll be perfectionist even for an application or a collaboration. But sometimes you'll need to understand that when it comes to your own, stand-alone work, sometimes there is a limit about what can you polish, and other times you'll have to give in and set a limit to your own perfectionism if you want to have a product.

You're still young, you need to learn to be flexible.

Take it from someone with an extensive history of being misunderstood for longer than you've been alive; if people are interpreting what you say a certain way, even if your intention isn't to mean it that way, it's still your responsibility that this is how it was read. At least when the general consensus has that misconception. Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride, apologize, and move on.

It's a lesson even the best of us have to keep practicing, but better start sooner than later, when all your bridges might be burned.

Again, yes, it is not totally on you. People should've held back more. However, these people (@candiedcotton and @RedLenai) are trying to help you avoid that. Also, no one is saying that you don't have a right to an opinion. No one is saying that you need to apologize for having your opinions.

However, this up here isn't an apology, and I feel strongly about this topic, so hate me if you want.

If you want to apologize, apologies don't have caveats or explanations. Those are excuses.

It's like saying, "I'm sorry I punched you in the face, but you did piss me off in the first place, and that's why I beat you."

It's better to just say an apology, even if you're just apologizing for your phrasing and leaving out the caveat of your opinion. People will usually give you the benefit of the doubt, so just giving a straight "I'm sorry" has much more impact than "I'm sorry, but...."

Trust me, it doesn't work. I was that kid, and I have literally used that type of excuse. That's why the action pisses me off so much. I have regretfully ruined my relationship with my family just because I wanted to be right and have the last word. So please, learn from my experience as I have learned from your experience in collabs.

The choice is up to you.