11 / 14
Apr 2021

So i'm working on my next project Tales of Phaeton after the failure of Drachenseele and I've been purposefully trying to make it the "Anti-Drachenseele/Dragoons" not just in terms of story and style, but also in terms of my relationship with it as well.

Just one problem: Some of the old problems that killed Drachenseele seem to be creeping in yet again for this project. Stuff like devoting too much time and power to polishing minor things like getting the protagonist's haircut and nose just right, fretting about that it doesn't looks exactly like my inspirations, being afraid to push myself and break my comfort zone for fear of how my characters and skills are perceived even when just doodling stuff I'm not planning on showing people, fussing over minute details in my story and world for fear that if I get super big then I'd get some half hour long video essay tearing me down for just those one or two small flaws or inconsistencies, still seemingly being under the delusion of thinking I will automatically get big enough for those types of critiques, and so on and so forth. Thankfully, it's not as bad as it was for the Dragoons, but I want to nip it in the bud before it gets to that point as well.

So what's the best way to go about that regarding those feelings? Especially breaking that core delusion of feeling that I need to make it "mondo big" right out of the gate with one series like Tales of Phaeton or the like? Has anyone else had similar delusions or feelings regarding their stuff as well? How'd you eventually pull out of it so you could actually just work on your things?

Thanks for the help. It's really exhausting to have this mindset still hanging about....

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    Apr '21
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    Apr '21
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I think it might be helpful to you to essentially "pants" your comic, just start drawing and draw as much as you can in a set period of time. Once you completed your comic or a block of work THEN go back and fine-tune to the drawings. If you are worrying too much about getting a drawing "perfect", you'll never get anything done.

Also, remember that you aren't making your comicbook series for anyone else but YOU! So, don't be afraid to give yourself a break!!! To reference my old scenic design teacher's 20ft rule, your average reader isn't going to notice or care about the proportions of your protagonist aren't 100% perfect. As long as the figures look relatively "normal" people are good to move on with the story. (Even comic series with unusual art design have still been popular) Even if some jerk makes a 30 minute video essay ragging on your work, it just means your work is good enough to merit a reaction. Most people I know if they see something that says "DON'T DO X" they will investigate it to form their own opinion. If they do that, your numbers will boost!

Give your self a break! You'll be okay!

I honestly went through something kind of like that years ago, when I was trying to change my comic for the better, but kept falling back to old habits with the "fear" cloud hanging above my head.

I ended up breaking my pattern when I decided to create it for myself only. That way, I wasn't constantly worrying about what other people think of it. That helped my artwork quite a bit. It got easier to design and we all know that no matter how perfect you want your comic to look, you're going to hate it a year later, or maybe even weeks later. As artists, we're always improving, so it's actually impossible to love every drawing. We can't spend all of our time focusing on such small details. The artwork is important, but it's not as important as the story.

On the story side, I broke my pattern by not trying to stay true to my original idea. It was getting in the way of my creative flow. I stuck to the basics. I knew what type of story I wanted to write, the names of the characters. Everything else was scraped.
I then blocked off where I wanted the story to start (point A), then blocked off what was Point B and then Point C, etc. After all of the key events were decided, I wrote Point A and let it flow in which ever way the characters took me. I don't force anything, but I have to get them to Point B somehow. I don't always agree with the decisions they end up making, so I have to re-route the story to somehow get them to Point B.

I found that writing that way, I wasn't able to fall into old pattern, because I was letting the characters do whatever they want. Yes, my characters have a mind of their own, they broke the mold and some are completely out of control. But, it makes unpredictable characters, even to the writer. It's really hard to fall into old patterns, when you write like that.

And, I never write more than one chapter at a time. Because, by the time I get to the next chapter, I might have changed my mind on what happens next. I was given a lot of time to think things over and I now have a better set up than before. it keeps the material fresh.

There is a phenomenon in the indie videogame development industry, where the creator/s get over-ambitious with a project and end up biting more than they could chew. I would not discard the existance of this in other creative fields.

The first goal of your product when you have a clear idea of your vision and the skills neccesary for a proper implementation, is to make it something than exist. This doesnt mean something rushed, but a consistent schesdule will lead you to something more viable.

The other goal, may sound silly, but will give you strenght to work on something you consider big......Have fun with it. If polishing the hair entertains you, cool, but otherwise, dont let it torment you.

For the time being, I'd just work under the assumption that it will stay small, and that it's a practice project more than anything else. Treat it as a fun means for skill development, and don't hang any further expectations on it than that.

My main character's facial proportions are being refined episode by episode, as I get more of a handle on drawing him the way I imagine him to look. That's reasonably normal even in professional comics, so I'm not losing any sleep over it. The likelihood of my comic becoming big enough that anyone is going to bother making a YouTube video about it is so utterly, monumentally unlikely, it's not worth worrying over. Even comics with hundreds of thousands of subscribers don't get that.

Keep your expectations firmly rooted in reality. Every time you start stressing about something super unlikely, use that awareness of reality to reign those worries back in. There's no use stressing about something which simply isn't going to happen. (I hope that doesn't sound harsh; I'm applying this to my own work as well. It's just real-talk.)

If your project did wind up with a sizeable audience, you could always re-launch it later on down the track with updated art. But if you don't just start making it, you'll never reach the rate of improvement where that's possible. Just start drawing, get those years and years of art practice in, and start worrying about the bigger stuff once you are beginning to see momentum in your audience.

An overabundance of perfectionism is one of the things which slows down artistic improvement the most. (The other thing is a lack of perfectionism. They're both bad.) At a certain point, creators have to just be willing to start a project, and see it through, so we can learn from all the mistakes we'll make, and therefore make the next project a little better. Rinse and repeat throughout a career.

It sounds a little like the fear of fear itself, right? Being afraid of failure is a natural thing, but when it gets to the point that it makes you feel like your project is doomed before it starts--it keeps you from ever starting that project. Like a lot of what you are currently afraid of has not happened and statistically, are probably not ever going to happen (a 1/2 hour roast of your comic on youtube is such a high effort form of harassment, like no one would bother, especially now that youtube ad revenue is ass.)

It seems a lot of your fears are about other people's perceptions of your work, and that can be really scary. But, remember that it's so hard to get visibility on this app. One of the blessings of that, is that means you only have to worry about a small audience (made largely of the people you talk to most, which would be people on this forum).

Remember that there's people out there putting out literal sketchy rough drafts for webcomics, there's grade schoolers drawing their comics in MSPaint with a mouse. There's people drawing comics on literal napkins (I have a friend with a gag comic that he used to draw on the scratch paper at our work during break--it was hella jank--but unlike a lot of perfectionist webcomic creators out there ((myself included, because I think I do far too much work for my comics)), he's STILL MAKING IT, and it started in 2002. It's almost 20 years old!)

Sometimes when we try to do "our best" we tend to overwork. But "Best" to me means that I finish my work. It doesn't mean everything is polished (hell if I can stay on model) but it means I had my eyes on the main goal, which was to stick to finish. So there's a lot I don't have completely cemented down--but that's OK because a.) it's a comic and you don't actually show every part of your world-building--most of that will get edited out ((much like most backgrounds, and most parts of your character, which will be offscreen most of the time)) and b.) I will be a different artist by the time I get there. Comics take a long time to make, don't forget it could be a year before you get to your 12th update. Looks short on a page...but a lot of stuff you simply don't need to think about yet.

For one thing, if you do watch videos like this about indie creators, or maybe cringe culture stuff in general, I'd 100% cut it out of your life. Second, maybe you need to sit and confront these fears? Worse case scenario, you make it big enough that this happens.... So what? Does someone else nitpicking you actually change what you've accomplished? It's scary, sure, but it's meaningless!* Nothing anyone makes will ever be perfect, and nor will everyone ever be satisfied. I'm not expert on this stuff, but I think confronting the "worst case" scenario, then talking yourself through it every time the fear rears up might start to take the teeth out of it.

(just want to note I'm not trying to diminish that fear. I super don't even want to get "too popular" because I don't want that level of scrutiny, lol)

Maybe work on calling yourself out when you're doing the perfectionism stuff? If you've spent X time fussing over something unimportant, you stop, and call yourself on it, and move on to the next thing. You can always revisit the imperfect thing later with fresh eyes and re-asses it's importance. Maybe make a schedule ahead of time that pushes you to move forward so you can't spend as much time spinning your wheels on unnecessary details. Also think about what your priorities are- whats most important and least important to your project? And ask yourself when you obsess "where does this issue fall on my scale of importance?" etc etc

Dear Aqua...this advice might not make sense to many people, but I know your work and some of your process. I think that you should stop planning. Just make a basic timeline, characters sheets and go for it. Your meticulous planning has been preventing you from posting your stuff. It's clearly not working for you. This "perfectionism" is just anxiety of not being good enough and fear of actually doing the comic. Like someone who is scared to jump into the water. Consider rethinking this idea "I'm a Perfectionist" in the context you are describing, because that's not it. And I think you use this word to disguise your insecurity with the name of a "quality". It is not an asset in this scenario.

I know you want to make mind blowing super complex projects...but that pressure has lead you nowhere. I don't even know why are the previous projects "dead". You didn't fail because you didn't even started. Just let them chill in the corner but don't feel defeated.

Maybe just make a simpler idea and start drawing. That's more productive than beating yourself down with super ambitious stuff that never gets released.

Me looking sadly into the distance whenever people ask me what happened to Vacant Sky Awakening, a really promising indie game I was lead artist on and we had a great working prototype but every time new tech or a new big game came out we had to redo everything because the project lead was such a perfectionist. It started 2D, then it went 3D, then it went realtime 3D, then it went modular.... I'm no longer on that project after the lead decided he wanted to change the entire aesthetic to a style I'm not suited to, which would involve redesigning the entire cast and scrapping every single visual asset created in the two years up to that point. I have serious doubts the game will ever get made, even though it could have released and probably been pretty good with the old map, dialogue and battle systems we had and the mostly 2D style.

My advice to all creators out there is... don't be that. Be Undertale. Undertale is short. You can play the whole thing with both major story paths in about 12 hours. Undertale has a very simple aesthetic and instead of big, fancy graphics or hugely complex systems, it has fun little details, a basic gameplay loop with very pared down RPG mechanics and very little character building choice, and a simple but heartfelt story about understanding and forgiveness. Do a simple thing very well. A comics equivalent is Nimona, a webcomic by Noelle Stevenson, who of course went on to work on Lumberjanes and then be the showrunner on She-Ra. Nimona isn't hugely long; about the length of one graphic novel. The art is simple but polished enough to clearly tell the story, look nice and have personality. It only has about four major characters.

So my advice to @aqua03 is that it's okay to fuss a bit on the details, but the best way to stop it getting out of hand is to keep re-focusing on the story you're trying to tell and cutting elements that aren't contributing. That way it's like... you can fuss over the main character, but you're not fussing over 12 minor characters as well. Keep the focus small. I regularly cut big side plots from Errant. Rekki's grandmother was going to be petrified in the chamber where they found Excalibur in the prologue, and there was going to be an extended flashback in the prologue of how that happened, then a subplot later where she got un-petrified and had to deal with basically having been frozen in time for 45 years... But it was needlessly complex and took the focus away from what the story is about, so I cut it entirely and Athena Lune now exists only as this distant martyr who symbolises Rekki's inability to live up to an unattainable standard. Rekki already has a figure she can't live up to in the present; Sarin fills that role just fine.

Focus on telling a really tight story. No loose plot threads, no characters who don't contribute to the plot, teach the character something or help the readers understand the world and story. Put your love of making the designs really tight to use so the audience can quickly tell them apart, knows what their deal is at a glance and falls in love with the iconic look of them, but keep the cast small so it doesn't get out of hand. Make comic sushi; a piece of sushi is small and simple without too many different ingredients, but it's neatly wrapped up and beautifully presented, and it's just one mouthful, but it's a perfect mouthful with a few tastes and textures that work really well together.

Aqua, I'll be honest with ya and don't worry, it won't be an essay on how to improve yourself.
To tell you the truth (or people with the same thing in mind), you do realize that webcomics aren't so popular as you think they are.
I mean, do you know any webcomic creators that got super famous when they uploaded their first webcomic?
I certainly don't. And the ones who made webcomics that do pop up in my mind are theodd1out and vivziepop. But they stopped working on their webcomic and were focusing on animation more, which made them famous as they are right now.
And you have to think you're not alone on this. There are over 61.000 creators on Tapas alone. And even if you manage to be heard here, you have to take on the other millions of creators worldwide to succeed. So your chances of being a one-hit-wonder are as tiny as an ant.
And speaking of being the next big thing, if you think that working alone on the webcomic will do the trick, that's like me trying to regrow my hair despite suffering after hair loss.
You have to branch out, working on multiple platforms doing more than one thing over and over again....The list is long.
I don't want to say dreaming of becoming a success is bad because everyone has this sliver of hope to be someone important in the near future. But doing one thing won't do the trick. And even if you become famous in some mysterious way, you'll have to work even harder than before. Because you have to be relevant to people, or you will die out like memes from the past. Plus, there will pop up people who don't like you and try to cancel you for just existing.
And the main thing that killed Drachenseele/Dagoons/DRGN or however you called your series was you, buddy. You thought you had 10 years behind in publishing, but all we saw was you worrying into oblivion if you become the next big thing. We didn't saw any pages, we saw only concept art, thoughts on story elements, and the multiple threads from you.
Look, I saw how you started to work on your new project and I was happy for you because you started something new and were full of excitement. And I want this Aqua, who doesn't worry about a thing and enjoyed working on something. And not the one that starts every week with a new thread with the same questions and answers given and received.
I don't want to speak for everyone, but I think everyone can agree that you should just work for yourself and the joy of creating. And not for the sake of being famous and chasing this spider's thread from hell.
I just want to see doing something before I lose all hope for you.

Yeah, I think that's a little bit. I know when I was younger and first starting out I did watch a lot of Nostalgia Critic and similar comedic videos taking down entertainingly bad media, and yes, they were amusing and did help teach me how not to write a story, but it also made a bit self conscious about my own work as well in hindsight. Mostly a feeling of "I gotta avoid these flaws so people would like my stuff universally" not just regarding "So bad it's good" stuff, but just watching reviews of things like games and movies among other things in general even if the reviews were mostly positive with only one or two minor flaws. Thankfully, I've mostly grown out of that "Cringe bad media takedown" phase, but I feel that the self consciousness still kinda sticks around in the back it feels.

Yeah, that's something I should probably keep in mind as well. "Finished, not perfect" is a common saying. To paraphrase another writing friend on Reddit i have, "Forget what that stoner green frog jerk Yoda said, at the end of the day all you can do is try."

Yeah, got a point there... I tend to fret a lot about things that are out of my control/unlikely to happen. Blame it on my anxiety I guess... Also, it's not like my art can grow and change as well. I mean, look at how my first comic Edible Green Tea evolved in terms of art or even how other comics have radically overhauled/improved their art style over the course of their runs (NathanKmcwilliams' comic Dragon Sparking comes to mind in terms of that given how it switched from Pixel Art, to hand drawn full color, to black and white manga style over the course of its run.)

Yeah, I've been debating on just kinda "Pantsing it" for a bit. I know that I do have a general rough idea of my plot. Probably should just finish writing that down, design the character, get a general idea for the world map and a few other things, and then just go for it. I know I'm planning making Tales a bit more "Straightforward" for the most part as well compared to the Dragoons also, so that'll help. (Thank you James Campbell for providing us with the Monomyth, I will be borrowing from it heavily for this one.) Probably should stop fretting over how meticulous i plan it and making sure everything is "on point" so i can just go for it. Maybe feel more free to just "write whatever" and go back and refine it later as opposed to this general feeling of my first idea needs to be the one I go with and thus must be the best.

Dang, sorry that happened. It looked pretty cool. (Amusing coincidence, considering the Dragoons started life as a video game idea I had.)

That's a pretty good way of thinking about things. I tend to get distracted a lot with side things mostly due to this desire to have a "Big" universe that I can tell endless stories in due to my love of shared universe stuff like Kamen Rider and the MCU among other things. I know I'm purposefully aiming for Tales to be the "Anti-Dragoons" in terms of stuff and I'm trying to aim for a relatively simple story as well with not that many diversions or characters as opposed to the sprawling Shonen battle manga casts and arcs my other projects have had in the past. So that's probably a good thing both in terms of learning how to keep things slim and trim and have a good cohesive plot and world. To quote Brookes Eggleston (an art youtuber I really like) "What's better? a Whole lot of mediocre pizza/story? or a small bit of really good pizza/story?"

(Amusingly enough, I recently played Deltarune and it reminded me a lot of how I'd probably do an EGT video game.)

Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about as well. Those people were the exception rather than the rule, and that's something I gotta keep in mind in general. Because not everyone's gonna make it big, and that's fine. (Coincidentally, I was planning on possibly entering animation school soon as well.)

Thank you. That's the me I want as well. I tired of just being anxious and fretting over everything to the point of migraines. I'm tired of second guessing every little thing because I'm worried some random schmoe on the internet would meme on some small flaw in my work on their random corner of the internet. I just wanna be free of that anxiety and move on to good things and growing as a person. Thankfully, it seems I might finally be taking steps in that direction with my newer projects as well. So here's hoping I can continue that climb.

Well I understand how you feel, but no one is going to see it if you don't post it, right??

Just do it, things will improve over time, you'll grow either if your project fails or succeds. But leave that to your audience, the worse scenario... You are already in it. Jump in!!

I think my most sincere advice at this point would be to just throw caution to the wind and go for it! :fire: :hype_01:

Having read your last few threads, I think you've arrived at a pretty neat new story idea. Some of your recent drawings that I've seen over the last few months and even into late 2020 have shown tons of improvement from early 2020 and 2019. And knowing that this isn't in fact your first published webcomic, I know that you know how the general process works.

Therefore I think just taking what you've got now and approaching it with a "YOLO, let's go" approach would be the most helpful :slight_smile: I can only speculate, but I'm pretty confident that your work will actually do better than you might think if given a chance. Will it be a block buster? Probably not! But I see the potential for a strong indie audience~ More than anything I'd like to see it come to life :raised_hands:

It sounds like the main problem is being too concerned about how people will look at your comic. Allow yourself to love the project you're working on, and nothing anyone could say about it can affect the way you work.

I've never read Drachenseele, but it sounds like you got some really rough criticism in the past for it. Still, creating a comic with the purpose of it being an "Anti-Drachenseele" isn't a healthy mindset either, it just reinforces the negativity that keeps you from liking your current work, because you're still caught up in what other people think.

Maybe a change of wording would help? Why not aim for the goal of creating a 'Better Drachenseele' or 'Drachenseele 2.0'? Look through your old story and find the things that are solid enough about it to keep in the new story, all while aiming to create something fun that you enjoy creating. I still look back through the old version of LOSTLAND from time to time, and find myself surprised by how solidly told certain parts of the story were.

This is quite the hefty message, but I hope this and the others help you out in some way. Don't let the negatives weigh you down! Create like no one's watching!