May 2021
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May 2021
Jan 2022
azzy-m
May '21

I feel like having a black character with white/light colored hair isn't racist on its own (though as previously mentioned, it's a tired trope) but the name.... uhhhh. Yea, it's lazy at most, and I think it would be considered insensitive by others.

If I were your friend, I'd have the name be something representative of the character and/or their personality and/or also search for actual Japanese names. I have a character in one of my comic ideas named Lilith Crawford, Lilith meaning "ghost, night monster" and Crawford meaning "ford of the crows" - and that's just for English names. Japanese names have way more creative name meanings, trust me.

If other black people (as I'm not black, nor Japanese) would have a problem with the "black person with white hair" trope, I'd just have that character have black hair and black features, but have their clothes with a heavily white color palette. Seriously, black characters look great with a white color palette without having to do anything to hair or eye color.

jkb4753
May '21
Wumbl

@Prince_Wumbl These posts explain cultural appropriation in a way that I personally could never hope to achieve. Like, I might quote these to my writer friends later. Its hard to explain in a way that people find valuable but you did that for me today. I am 100% convinced after reading that even if it's not a racist trope, its insensitive to exoticize a character's physical appearance. As though looks, including race, are the extent of that character's personality.

@neichasart well said. Naming a character is an opportunity for worldbuilding. If you use shallow naming conventions, its a reflection of your shallow worldbuilding.
This probably extends to all stories, not just the fantasy genre. I'm super guilty of it. I have four characters all named magnus (its a comedy, but there were better jokes I could have made.)

LCT_m_a_d
May '21

As a black person, I personally prefer seeing black characters portrayed with fashion that black people rep instead of exotic dark-skinned characters (unless there's an actual cultural reason). It sounds like maybe they're visualizing just a really dark skinned asian character.

It's not racist just a bit exploitive and un-relatable. Maybe start with basing characters off with everyday black people. To be fair I live in the US.

bluejamtoast
May '21
Wumbl

We both have assumptions. I've made the assumption its not a super serious grounded in real life story because, black, charac, w white hair, & japanese name screams cartoony.

And for me there is no morality with stylistic choice. It's neither bad or good. Just is.

Do not use TV shows that are purposefully cartoonish / edgy as support for what normal naming conventions are

You've made the assumption they want something grounded in reality, I don't understand why. We all know Shiro isn't a normal Japanese name. Hence why I'm using cartoon/anime examples

Agree to disagree I don't understand why only an asian character can have a name derivative from an asian language. Why? Cultural differences I guess, i'm not from the West or East and have the same standards of judgment for both. Again with the Hamatora example they were all Japanese w quirky/edgy/weird english names

If you're not picking up the nuances of what I'm saying that's on you, sorry. I'm trying to make them clear

I genuinely don't understand and I feel you haven't answered clearly :weary: and you haven't explained The naming / writing conventions and tropes used by japanese authors are inherently different to how westerners make their choices ?? In what way?

I'm just trying to raise a point of why asian people don't like certain patterns in projects made by weebs, (literal weebs - weeaboos) and why it's important to be aware of it.

If you think its corny, generic and kind of laughable. then fair enough, but I don't understand the condemnation for the anime examples or how it concludes that its only ok for a fictional asian character to use corny asian name

Please don't consider this as speaking over asians, but speaking with you guys.

At least do you get where I am coming from?

foxnflames
May '21

Also another actual black person chiming in :sparkles::sparkles::sparkles: I’ll lead with this: I’m going to assume your friend isn’t black, otherwise this question wouldn’t be brought up. And if this is a concern this early on, any other character and world building will go exponentially downhill from here :sip:.

I agree with the above. White hair with no purpose, or if this character isn’t Japanese, is a tired trope and diminishes the opportunity to display a black character beyond token featurism with “exotic” aesthetic. Also, @LCT_m_a_d brought up a good point because a lot of people tend to claim dark skinned Asian anime characters as black which not only may be completely erroneous, but it contributes to the erasure of dark skinned Asians in media.

Personally, names are one of the last things I come up with. I’d implore your friend to flesh out their character, do research, then figure out how important this proposed name is.

Aleksei
May '21

Just a question, is this racist?

Uncanny_X-Men_Vol_1_449_Textless.jpg519x780 143 KB

We all know Storm from ages, and I am not aware of any kind of racist call for her hair, or name (Ororo meaning 'beauty'). Her's hair and eyes are explained as genetic legacy, not part of her mutation, and play for her backgrounds.
I say that if Marvel could do this, you could too. Just flesh out everything to have a meaning, and not a description of something that we can already see, and everything will go fine.

Wumbl
May '21
bluejamtoast

I'm not really going to argue with you anymore because it's evident you're not arguing in good faith - you're not speaking with asians you're speaking for us - your original post was you using actual asian authors' characters as examples for why it was totally fine, when those characters weren't like the one OP mentioned.

I'm specifically talking about a black character being portrayed this way. If you can't see that, I'm not willing to fight over something as simple as POC's right to self-determine what we're offended by.

If you don't see what's bad about a black character being exoticised and refuse to understand that there are nuances to this situaiton that's fine, don't make it my problem though because I am tired of being talked down to.

This isn't about you so where you're coming from is not really important? If that makes sense. This conversation is specifically about non-asians using japanese names, and black/brown skinned characters being portrayed incorrectly.

MK_Wizard
May '21

... I don't know. I'm not black, so I would think the name "Shiro" (white) is referring to his hair and that maybe he got his name because of his hair, so it doesn't look problematic to me. It's not like he is trying to be a white person or wishes to be a white person. He is just a black person with white hair.

On another webcomic I read, Stringy and Mopy, one of the characters is called Snow White and she is black with black hair and doesn't even dress or look like Snow White. So maybe it is a case of overthinking it.

sorible
May '21

Agreed. When I look for names, I like names that have a story or names that have a nice ring to it, rather than a meaning behind it. Unless it is explicitly explained and relates to the story, most people will just overlook it. I would recommend your friend research into some names in Japanese culture. I have seen a few stories with main characters named Norang (yellow) or Hayan (white) but those kind of names are easily forgettable.

DiegoPalacios
May '21

I think context on the setting and the character can help better to see how much the name and the character's look can be fitting or not......

bluejamtoast
May '21
Wumbl

?????
Yo seriously I have no bad will. I guess it's lack of body language and voice but re-read my responses with a light tone not aggressive/confrontational.

OP asked if people found it racist, I replied literally starting with imo no. I gave examples of fictional characters literally named Shiro after their aesthetic characteristics

You respond with its not a good equivalent because they are Japanese whilst OP's friend's character is not. I then gave examples of Japanese characters with quirky english names to illustrate why I think it is acceptable. I never once thought of this as an argument but a discussion, I was replying to your reply??? How else would I convey my thoughts?

I'm a POC too (black west african) and simply presented my own thoughts on the matter, so please don't dismiss me when it comes to my opinion on how black characters can be portrayed...

Obviously we have different upbringings cultivating in different perspectives on the matter but for me growing up there was a rhetoric that dark skins can't wear bright hair colours, black girls look ugly with bright lipsticks etc etc, excessive policing on beauty expression and standards that those of fairer complexion were not held too something I vehemently disagree with hence why I am ok seeing black/brown skinned characters with unorthodox colour palettes for hair.


Take Atsuko Jackson, dark skin, 4c hair texture, white hair colour, Japanese name, western surname. Its all stylistic and unrealistic but in context of the anime it works and I personally am a huge fan of the character design

I have different standards for different projects depending on the target market and genre. Assuming its not grounded in reality then its fine imo. In the same way a world with a japanese ninja with blonde hair blue eyes named literally fishcake a dark skinned character with white hair named Killer B works, my point is why be realistic/super accurate??

Why do you feel talked down too/that it is your problem. I'm literally just replying to your reply to my reply??? :tired_face:

This isn't about you so where you're coming from is not really important? If that makes sense. This conversation is specifically about non-asians using japanese names, and black/brown skinned characters being portrayed incorrectly.

In order to communicate one must understand the other persons perspective no?

For me it is just like this

Light Yagami, japanese dude with unorthodox english name

To conclude, a black character named Shiro after their hair is a not racist. Corny yes. But if the rest of the world the characters created is of the same vein then its fine.

Can a third party comment whether my responses come across as rude?

foxnflames
May '21
1

Marvel doing something and any other creator is not the same thing. At all. And you literally addressed the elephant in the room with this statement, rendering it a moot point. From the OP, we don’t know why this character has white hair. Like you pointed out, there’s a reason for storm having her hair color and eyes. And gee, her name has cultural significance to her.

General statement: I don’t see why some of y’all are cherry picking and doing all these leaps and bounds to miss the point so hard.

@Prince_Wumbl you are a gem. There’s no way I’d expend so much emotional labor repeatedly making the same point. You’ve explained yourself and the point and I’m sure drawing it out in crayon wouldn’t help.

@Tanako there’s a big difference in choosing to dye your hair and slapping some random features on a black character. And even if said character had an unnatural hair color, it’s a choice by the creator, which still begs the questions, why.

Editing to add: racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. A black character with white (and any other color) hair isn’t inherently racist. But shying away from Afro centric features and the like is a slippery slope and I’ve seen so many people take a tumble. Also, as said above, giving characters culturally significant names (also a general statement) because you think it “sounds nice” is appropriation.

And comparing eastern and western culture when it comes to a lot of things (names) is apples and oranges.

TAMAnnoyingThe Cow
May '21
1

This discussion is usless since we don’t have nearly any information about the world building.

Like absolutely zero.

People seem to always forget the factor that parents are the ones who’ve named to character and thus would be the people responsible for the well chosen or badly chosen name.

Parents can name their children whatever they want so long as the government approves of it- which again is world building information.

You could call your character/child Tree if you wanted. Is it weird? Yes. Is it something you can do? Yes. Will people call them tree if they meet them? Maybe, maybe not. Professor OAK is a name that exisits and is in fact named after a tree SO.

I don’t even know if this is a historical story which naming conventions would be important or a “neo Japan- totally not actually callafornia” setting where naming conventions arnt even a real thing anymore.

If it’s supposed tp be a modern setting then naming conventions aren’t even important anymore because there’s PLENTY of children named after GOT characters now. People name their children after things they like most of the time so like???

The only actually racist thing about this entire conversation is people are asking if someone with dark skin is allowed to be called a word that means “white” thinking skin color is more important then

  1. Personally
  2. Family
  3. Setting
  4. Time period
  5. Any amount of time on world building
  6. Story
  7. Themes
IndigoShirtProd
May '21

Right, true, but um, yea, the creator if the character has the be all end all on what a character's name is. And also Shiro could easily be a nickname given to the character as well, it doesn't have to come from their parents or guardians.

Let's not call people asking questions and informing themselves in an effort to be less ignorant, racist. There are plenty of loaded questions out there that have those specific implications. I would posit, that this is not one of them.

Tanako
May '21
foxnflames

does it really matter? its a fictional character so it shouldn't matter. every one is free to create what they want as long as it's not offensive. i know its hard to tell whats offensive to people but you can't please everyone. I have a Russian character with red hair, I also have a white boy with orange hair. and i have a black character with natural pink hair. in my creation, the colors are natural not died.
at the end of the day, they are all "fictional", characters.

All i'm saying is, its ok to be creative with your characters. there is no rule that says you have to be ethnically correct when creating a character. its freedom of choice.

LCT_m_a_d
May '21
1
TAMAnnoying

I wouldn't say it's useless, I think one important point raised (to a level of contention) is that "not racist" isn't the only checkbox that makes many people feel comfortable with how people are portrayed.

I hope voicing my opinion on the matter would offer insight from a black individual with dark feature complexion. I don't want anyone to deny dark people with light complexion, as much as I'd like creators to appreciate black people with common darker complexions when it comes to design.

Of course I'm only one person, so you are welcome to respect or disregard my individual opinion as far as you value my right to share it. I always appreciate the courage it takes to learn about people first and represent individuals, and not just their tolerated portrayal.

foxnflames
May '21
Tanako

These “fictional characters” are vessels for representation in media. And “as long as it’s not offensive” is a cop out. Because as long as it’s not offensive to who? The people who most novels and comics and Tv shows and movies cater to? Because it’s not people who look like us.

My stories center BIPOC, mainly black people because of the lack of positive representation, especially toward dark skinned black men. Even though I’m black, I’m still careful of how I portray my characters because while they’re not real people, we as humans draw connections and comparisons to things in real life. So I’m not about to sit up here and perpetuate negative stereotypes of people who look like my friends, husband, coworkers, family, etc. All my characters are created with care so I’m not about to flippantly say, oh they’re not real and as long as no one calls me out on it then it’s fine.

I never said that you or anyone couldn’t be creative with character design, but each feature has some type of purpose, whether intended or not. You might pick a hair or eye color because you like it, but you can’t control how people perceive it. And to blatantly ignore that notion as a creator is beyond careless.

Tanako
May '21

I have no faintest idea on what you are getting at. and to be honest, I don't share the same view as you so you might as well stop trying to prove your point to me. you owe me nothing and I don't owe you anything as well.
The original post say "What do you think? Is it racist, or we overthink it?". And I gave my opinion and here you are attacking my comment.

to be honest, all that you have said means absolutely nothing to me. I gave OP my perspective so let's all stay on topic.

R.n.P
May '21

no its not racist, that would be a reach to say so, you're just referencing the characters hair