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May 2021

Hi!
I would like to ask your opinion. My friend told me about her story she is planning, and mentioned that she would like to have a black character who has white hair, and her name would be Shiro, which means white in japanese. I told her that I think maybe it is not the best choice, because some reader would possibly misunderstood it. She is also uncertain about if it is right to use this name, but she is too shy to ask others opinion here :grin: So I ask it instead of her. What do you think? Is it racist, or we overthink it?

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    May '21
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    Jan '22
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In my opinion it isn't inherently racist however, having a black/dark skinned character with blonde/white hair to make them stand out is a tired trope. That being said I personally DO have black characters with white hair but I balanced it by having many black characters with all kinds of "unnatural" hair colors.

As far as the name is this character half Japanese or lives in Japan and was given that nickname? If not, you may want to consider giving her a name that means white like Kei, Bianca, or Livana, rather than just the word "white" in another language. If you go to babynames.com they have a search feature where you can look up names by their meaning.

The name isn't inherently racist, but it is very generic and kind of laughable. (I say this as an asian japanese-speaker) Are they Japanese? Even then, having just a colour as your name is a bit ridiculous. Even in "different cultures" we don't just name our children after their hair colour or whatever. They're not a dog.

Also the "black character with light hair" trope is considered to be annoying because it implies a black/brown character is only palatable if they're offset by traits that are typical to white people (light hair, blue eyes etc) - it's not inherently racist but is a tired and unpleasant trope that people of colour are sick of seeing. (EG. as a dark-skinned asian I am sick of darker-skinned asian characters having white lipstick and hair. it makes me very uncomfortable)

Please don't use baby names.com, it's a site that has zero real information :information_desk_person:
I don't think it's racist, but like, so many cool and interesting Japanese names, naming her Shiro...why? Is having something white is her only characteristic?

Those characters are explicitly Japanese though. There's a reason they have those names - also Shiro from Deadman Wonderland isn't a normal human being and so is not subject to normal naming conventions.

Actual normal people born in Japan wouldn't be named "Shiro" - those characters are removed from reality on purpose. It's a literary device to show how abnormal and otherworldly they are.

Do not use TV shows that are purposefully cartoonish / edgy as support for what normal naming conventions are... especially when dealing with asian vs non-asian authors (or japanese-speaker authors) it's really ridiculous. It's normal for asian authors to name our characters ridiculous things for symbolism / poetic reasons. It's not normal for westerners to thoughtlessly throw random japanese words around to look quirky and cool.

How old is your friend?

Naming non japanese characters japanese names always comes off as "Things a middle schooler weeb would do".
If it's a fantasy type setting I guess you could get away with it. But I still fail to see the point. I personally name characters based off their family, where they're from, culture etc. Because I feel like a name is a great way to build upon a character's history.
But that's mostly a thing when you're using our world as a setting.

I don't know if I'd call it racist per se, but it's not going to serve the story in a meaningful way. It's maybe a little distasteful?

I'm white though so I'm not qualified to say something is or isn't racist.

It’s not racist, but it’s not original. That’s okay though, as long as she isn’t writing with the intent to be published with a traditional company.

That being said, there are other issues that may arise, but it depends on the target audience and platform.

This reminds me how my mother got her name. When she was born, she had a head full of hair, so her excited father was going, “Oh, look at this! She’s a girl, and we need a ribbon to tie all this hair, and it’s dark like a magpie.” And when he said ‘magpie’ there is a name that sounds like a magpie, but doesn’t mean magpie. And it stuck.

Something like that makes a great backstory, with a family dynamic imo, and enriches the story.

It's normal for asian authors to name our characters ridiculous things for symbolism / poetic reasons. It's not normal for westerners to thoughtlessly throw random japanese words around to look quirky and cool.

?????
It depends on the target market/genre the story is for but both do it. The cartoons I grew up watching had abnormal protagonist names lol

That could be the same style op's friend is framing their story in. A purposely cartoonish anime style

Also Japanese creators have used quirky random foreign language names for again stylistic purposes
Eg Hamatora where the characters are Birthday, Art, Three, Ratio, Moral etc abnormal english names or 91 Days with weird Italian names off the top of my head

It may be a stylistic intentional choice

Also its not thoughtless if there is a reasoning behind the name

See I like that! It's so much more personalised rather than just naming the child a colour.

My grandfather died before I was born, but that one story made me love him. :sob:

You have to understand that when working with another language, things are different.

The naming / writing conventions and tropes used by japanese authors are inherently different to how westerners make their choices. The cartoons you watched growing up had "abnormal" names by english-speaking standards not by the standards of asian authors. They're not the same.

Naming a non-japanese character a blatantly japanese name stands out, obviously. It's not good to paint things with broad brush-strokes, nor to speak over asians when we're trying to educate you about why something makes us uncomfortable. It's thoughtless, not because there's """no meaning""" but because it's literally just the name of the character's hair colour. That's thoughtless unless you're looking to write something comedic / purposefully strange. You're operating on the defensive for something you don't even know... When western authors name their non-asian characters random japanese words it makes asian people feel uncomfortable.

But why do you make the assumption of the type of genre/story OP's friend is trying to tell idgi?

The naming / writing conventions and tropes used by japanese authors are inherently different to how westerners make their choices. The cartoons you watched growing up had "abnormal" names by english-speaking standards not by the standards of asian authors. They're not the same.

What is the difference?

*For the example I gave Hamatora the characters are all Japanese btw with quirky english names

I mean you're making an assumption.

I'm literally not, whatsoever, because I'm epxlaining how it can be offensive within certain contexts but not others. If the character is A. asian and B. intended to not be taken dead serious, yes it's fine. However OP said the character was black, and never said anything about them being even remotely asian.

If you're not picking up the nuances of what I'm saying that's on you, sorry. I'm trying to make them clear.

I'm just trying to raise a point of why asian people don't like certain patterns in projects made by weebs, (literal weebs - weeaboos) and why it's important to be aware of it.

Aye, if you absolutely must include the color somewhere in the name, you don't have to just use the color lol

There's already existing names with colors or similar ideas to color used within their kanji like Shirogane and Kageyama and Aomori and if I'm right those names can be roughly translated to "white iron/blade", "shadowy mountain", and blue forest".

You can also take a look at how actual Japanese names are put together with their kanji and try coming up with one on your own with its own reasonable pronunciation, but please, I promise it won't hurt to put a little more effort than Google Translate

Edit: The comment's aimed at your friend btw please excuse my usage of "you"

I feel like having a black character with white/light colored hair isn't racist on its own (though as previously mentioned, it's a tired trope) but the name.... uhhhh. Yea, it's lazy at most, and I think it would be considered insensitive by others.

If I were your friend, I'd have the name be something representative of the character and/or their personality and/or also search for actual Japanese names. I have a character in one of my comic ideas named Lilith Crawford, Lilith meaning "ghost, night monster" and Crawford meaning "ford of the crows" - and that's just for English names. Japanese names have way more creative name meanings, trust me.

If other black people (as I'm not black, nor Japanese) would have a problem with the "black person with white hair" trope, I'd just have that character have black hair and black features, but have their clothes with a heavily white color palette. Seriously, black characters look great with a white color palette without having to do anything to hair or eye color.

@Prince_Wumbl These posts explain cultural appropriation in a way that I personally could never hope to achieve. Like, I might quote these to my writer friends later. Its hard to explain in a way that people find valuable but you did that for me today. I am 100% convinced after reading that even if it's not a racist trope, its insensitive to exoticize a character's physical appearance. As though looks, including race, are the extent of that character's personality.

@neichasart well said. Naming a character is an opportunity for worldbuilding. If you use shallow naming conventions, its a reflection of your shallow worldbuilding.
This probably extends to all stories, not just the fantasy genre. I'm super guilty of it. I have four characters all named magnus (its a comedy, but there were better jokes I could have made.)

As a black person, I personally prefer seeing black characters portrayed with fashion that black people rep instead of exotic dark-skinned characters (unless there's an actual cultural reason). It sounds like maybe they're visualizing just a really dark skinned asian character.

It's not racist just a bit exploitive and un-relatable. Maybe start with basing characters off with everyday black people. To be fair I live in the US.

We both have assumptions. I've made the assumption its not a super serious grounded in real life story because, black, charac, w white hair, & japanese name screams cartoony.

And for me there is no morality with stylistic choice. It's neither bad or good. Just is.

Do not use TV shows that are purposefully cartoonish / edgy as support for what normal naming conventions are

You've made the assumption they want something grounded in reality, I don't understand why. We all know Shiro isn't a normal Japanese name. Hence why I'm using cartoon/anime examples

Agree to disagree I don't understand why only an asian character can have a name derivative from an asian language. Why? Cultural differences I guess, i'm not from the West or East and have the same standards of judgment for both. Again with the Hamatora example they were all Japanese w quirky/edgy/weird english names

If you're not picking up the nuances of what I'm saying that's on you, sorry. I'm trying to make them clear

I genuinely don't understand and I feel you haven't answered clearly :weary: and you haven't explained The naming / writing conventions and tropes used by japanese authors are inherently different to how westerners make their choices ?? In what way?

I'm just trying to raise a point of why asian people don't like certain patterns in projects made by weebs, (literal weebs - weeaboos) and why it's important to be aware of it.

If you think its corny, generic and kind of laughable. then fair enough, but I don't understand the condemnation for the anime examples or how it concludes that its only ok for a fictional asian character to use corny asian name

Please don't consider this as speaking over asians, but speaking with you guys.

At least do you get where I am coming from?

Also another actual black person chiming in :sparkles::sparkles::sparkles: I’ll lead with this: I’m going to assume your friend isn’t black, otherwise this question wouldn’t be brought up. And if this is a concern this early on, any other character and world building will go exponentially downhill from here :sip:.

I agree with the above. White hair with no purpose, or if this character isn’t Japanese, is a tired trope and diminishes the opportunity to display a black character beyond token featurism with “exotic” aesthetic. Also, @LCT_m_a_d brought up a good point because a lot of people tend to claim dark skinned Asian anime characters as black which not only may be completely erroneous, but it contributes to the erasure of dark skinned Asians in media.

Personally, names are one of the last things I come up with. I’d implore your friend to flesh out their character, do research, then figure out how important this proposed name is.

Just a question, is this racist?

We all know Storm from ages, and I am not aware of any kind of racist call for her hair, or name (Ororo meaning 'beauty'). Her's hair and eyes are explained as genetic legacy, not part of her mutation, and play for her backgrounds.
I say that if Marvel could do this, you could too. Just flesh out everything to have a meaning, and not a description of something that we can already see, and everything will go fine.

I'm not really going to argue with you anymore because it's evident you're not arguing in good faith - you're not speaking with asians you're speaking for us - your original post was you using actual asian authors' characters as examples for why it was totally fine, when those characters weren't like the one OP mentioned.

I'm specifically talking about a black character being portrayed this way. If you can't see that, I'm not willing to fight over something as simple as POC's right to self-determine what we're offended by.

If you don't see what's bad about a black character being exoticised and refuse to understand that there are nuances to this situaiton that's fine, don't make it my problem though because I am tired of being talked down to.

This isn't about you so where you're coming from is not really important? If that makes sense. This conversation is specifically about non-asians using japanese names, and black/brown skinned characters being portrayed incorrectly.

... I don't know. I'm not black, so I would think the name "Shiro" (white) is referring to his hair and that maybe he got his name because of his hair, so it doesn't look problematic to me. It's not like he is trying to be a white person or wishes to be a white person. He is just a black person with white hair.

On another webcomic I read, Stringy and Mopy, one of the characters is called Snow White and she is black with black hair and doesn't even dress or look like Snow White. So maybe it is a case of overthinking it.

Agreed. When I look for names, I like names that have a story or names that have a nice ring to it, rather than a meaning behind it. Unless it is explicitly explained and relates to the story, most people will just overlook it. I would recommend your friend research into some names in Japanese culture. I have seen a few stories with main characters named Norang (yellow) or Hayan (white) but those kind of names are easily forgettable.

I think context on the setting and the character can help better to see how much the name and the character's look can be fitting or not......

?????
Yo seriously I have no bad will. I guess it's lack of body language and voice but re-read my responses with a light tone not aggressive/confrontational.

OP asked if people found it racist, I replied literally starting with imo no. I gave examples of fictional characters literally named Shiro after their aesthetic characteristics

You respond with its not a good equivalent because they are Japanese whilst OP's friend's character is not. I then gave examples of Japanese characters with quirky english names to illustrate why I think it is acceptable. I never once thought of this as an argument but a discussion, I was replying to your reply??? How else would I convey my thoughts?

I'm a POC too (black west african) and simply presented my own thoughts on the matter, so please don't dismiss me when it comes to my opinion on how black characters can be portrayed...

Obviously we have different upbringings cultivating in different perspectives on the matter but for me growing up there was a rhetoric that dark skins can't wear bright hair colours, black girls look ugly with bright lipsticks etc etc, excessive policing on beauty expression and standards that those of fairer complexion were not held too something I vehemently disagree with hence why I am ok seeing black/brown skinned characters with unorthodox colour palettes for hair.


Take Atsuko Jackson, dark skin, 4c hair texture, white hair colour, Japanese name, western surname. Its all stylistic and unrealistic but in context of the anime it works and I personally am a huge fan of the character design

I have different standards for different projects depending on the target market and genre. Assuming its not grounded in reality then its fine imo. In the same way a world with a japanese ninja with blonde hair blue eyes named literally fishcake a dark skinned character with white hair named Killer B works, my point is why be realistic/super accurate??

Why do you feel talked down too/that it is your problem. I'm literally just replying to your reply to my reply??? :tired_face:

This isn't about you so where you're coming from is not really important? If that makes sense. This conversation is specifically about non-asians using japanese names, and black/brown skinned characters being portrayed incorrectly.

In order to communicate one must understand the other persons perspective no?

For me it is just like this

Light Yagami, japanese dude with unorthodox english name

To conclude, a black character named Shiro after their hair is a not racist. Corny yes. But if the rest of the world the characters created is of the same vein then its fine.

Can a third party comment whether my responses come across as rude?

Marvel doing something and any other creator is not the same thing. At all. And you literally addressed the elephant in the room with this statement, rendering it a moot point. From the OP, we don’t know why this character has white hair. Like you pointed out, there’s a reason for storm having her hair color and eyes. And gee, her name has cultural significance to her.

General statement: I don’t see why some of y’all are cherry picking and doing all these leaps and bounds to miss the point so hard.

@Prince_Wumbl you are a gem. There’s no way I’d expend so much emotional labor repeatedly making the same point. You’ve explained yourself and the point and I’m sure drawing it out in crayon wouldn’t help.

@Tanako there’s a big difference in choosing to dye your hair and slapping some random features on a black character. And even if said character had an unnatural hair color, it’s a choice by the creator, which still begs the questions, why.

Editing to add: racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. A black character with white (and any other color) hair isn’t inherently racist. But shying away from Afro centric features and the like is a slippery slope and I’ve seen so many people take a tumble. Also, as said above, giving characters culturally significant names (also a general statement) because you think it “sounds nice” is appropriation.

And comparing eastern and western culture when it comes to a lot of things (names) is apples and oranges.

This discussion is usless since we don’t have nearly any information about the world building.

Like absolutely zero.

People seem to always forget the factor that parents are the ones who’ve named to character and thus would be the people responsible for the well chosen or badly chosen name.

Parents can name their children whatever they want so long as the government approves of it- which again is world building information.

You could call your character/child Tree if you wanted. Is it weird? Yes. Is it something you can do? Yes. Will people call them tree if they meet them? Maybe, maybe not. Professor OAK is a name that exisits and is in fact named after a tree SO.

I don’t even know if this is a historical story which naming conventions would be important or a “neo Japan- totally not actually callafornia” setting where naming conventions arnt even a real thing anymore.

If it’s supposed tp be a modern setting then naming conventions aren’t even important anymore because there’s PLENTY of children named after GOT characters now. People name their children after things they like most of the time so like???

The only actually racist thing about this entire conversation is people are asking if someone with dark skin is allowed to be called a word that means “white” thinking skin color is more important then

  1. Personally
  2. Family
  3. Setting
  4. Time period
  5. Any amount of time on world building
  6. Story
  7. Themes

Right, true, but um, yea, the creator if the character has the be all end all on what a character's name is. And also Shiro could easily be a nickname given to the character as well, it doesn't have to come from their parents or guardians.

Let's not call people asking questions and informing themselves in an effort to be less ignorant, racist. There are plenty of loaded questions out there that have those specific implications. I would posit, that this is not one of them.

does it really matter? its a fictional character so it shouldn't matter. every one is free to create what they want as long as it's not offensive. i know its hard to tell whats offensive to people but you can't please everyone. I have a Russian character with red hair, I also have a white boy with orange hair. and i have a black character with natural pink hair. in my creation, the colors are natural not died.
at the end of the day, they are all "fictional", characters.

All i'm saying is, its ok to be creative with your characters. there is no rule that says you have to be ethnically correct when creating a character. its freedom of choice.

I wouldn't say it's useless, I think one important point raised (to a level of contention) is that "not racist" isn't the only checkbox that makes many people feel comfortable with how people are portrayed.

I hope voicing my opinion on the matter would offer insight from a black individual with dark feature complexion. I don't want anyone to deny dark people with light complexion, as much as I'd like creators to appreciate black people with common darker complexions when it comes to design.

Of course I'm only one person, so you are welcome to respect or disregard my individual opinion as far as you value my right to share it. I always appreciate the courage it takes to learn about people first and represent individuals, and not just their tolerated portrayal.

These “fictional characters” are vessels for representation in media. And “as long as it’s not offensive” is a cop out. Because as long as it’s not offensive to who? The people who most novels and comics and Tv shows and movies cater to? Because it’s not people who look like us.

My stories center BIPOC, mainly black people because of the lack of positive representation, especially toward dark skinned black men. Even though I’m black, I’m still careful of how I portray my characters because while they’re not real people, we as humans draw connections and comparisons to things in real life. So I’m not about to sit up here and perpetuate negative stereotypes of people who look like my friends, husband, coworkers, family, etc. All my characters are created with care so I’m not about to flippantly say, oh they’re not real and as long as no one calls me out on it then it’s fine.

I never said that you or anyone couldn’t be creative with character design, but each feature has some type of purpose, whether intended or not. You might pick a hair or eye color because you like it, but you can’t control how people perceive it. And to blatantly ignore that notion as a creator is beyond careless.

I have no faintest idea on what you are getting at. and to be honest, I don't share the same view as you so you might as well stop trying to prove your point to me. you owe me nothing and I don't owe you anything as well.
The original post say "What do you think? Is it racist, or we overthink it?". And I gave my opinion and here you are attacking my comment.

to be honest, all that you have said means absolutely nothing to me. I gave OP my perspective so let's all stay on topic.

no its not racist, that would be a reach to say so, you're just referencing the characters hair

While not blatantly racist, all of this information can explain how the character could be interpreted negatively. And hopefully you can relay the above points to your friend. Clearly the Black community is not a monolith (and neither are any POC groups) and some find more problems with the specific character than others. It's up to your friend to decide if they wish to proceed with the caveat that the character could rub some folks the wrong way.

Since we don't know your friend's world setting (maybe everyone has cheesy names based off some aspect of their appearance), perhaps a solution to better the situation could be to include more Black characters that have natural features and quirky names.

I feel like I should elaborate on the bit about Light lol

Canonically speaking, Light's name is technically still Japanese, but apparently the author made the decision to pronounce it like the English word "light". So if we were to strictly go off the kanji alone for his name being written out, then his name is actually Tsuki which means "moon".

Anyways.. I think y'all are needlessly arguing based off of assumptions, could this seriously not wait until the OP can clarify the creator's intent?? Are you that eager and impatient to prove each other wrong???

Lmao I’m not attacking your comment or proving anything to you. I merely wholeheartedly disagreed with what you said. You’re simply one of many people on this post.

And funny how you didn’t know what i was getting at but gave an apt reply.

My point is for the way the name is read. Its not a normal reading of the kanji, Ohda specifically chose for him to be called Light a non japanese name

Nah, its not that deep, just trying to clarify my point