LGBTQ folks, what frustrates you about BL/GL and what would you like to see more of?

[kytri]

You're not, I also like stories with a lot of sex. It's the done right part I'm a stickler about.

I actually do a bit of adults only art and writing, I just don't post it here.

[jurinova]

A lot of good points are made here and I agree with most of them. Sometimes you can just smell the stereotypical writing based on straight stereotypes from afar. Both BL and GL seem to have these ridiculous hetero ideas where one must be feminine and one must be masculine. It's so frustrating and insulting. Not to mention how often the stereotype of pushy, predatory gays is used. Ugh.

I'm also all for the occassional sex scene but so often it seem to be done to titillate the straight audience and it lacks genuine emotion or any sense of reality. I think it could just be that they're getting all their information from yaoi and yuri, which is... not good. It's so rare to see a comic where people laugh or have fun during sex. Or just even communicate normally. Or like, have safe sex.

In BL I think it's terrible how often all women are assholes, especially if it's an ex-girlfriend. Also no one is ever bisexual, even if they've had several girlfriends before. Bisexuality seems like a curse word in the land of BL.

I enjoy a story where the characters are more than their sexuality or gender. Romance is great, but I like to read about more than just that. If all the struggles in the plot revolve only around the romance it's boring. Characters need a life outside of their special other, and this applies to hetero romances too.

[punkarsenic]

i think id like there to be more ~ugliness and gender non conformity. a lot of GL and mainstream f/f media focuses on gender conforming fems, and theres little to be seen of butches or lesbian/wlw culture. i think its a shame, bc we have a really rich culture

[Kura]

A lot of stuff has already been mentioned, but I'll add this awkward one I constantly seem to run into.

Impossible sex that is impossible only for the fact that rolls are gendered. I mean to say when the sex is just straight sex but with a bl cover.

Self lubricating butt-holes are not a thing. It's actually really gross when I read a line commenting on how wet their butt is because they're 'obviously ready for the smex'

Instead if getting me interested in the scene it just makes me horrified because no... if your butt-hole is all hot bothered and wet you should probably not engage in sexual activities because you have mad diarrhea and you're about to turn this situation into a nightmarish mess.

Another not so awkward one. The "I'm not gay but we gotta SIN and have sex if we want to survive."

Another one is casually molestation or as a cute funny hahah 'see you can tell he's GAY' joke. It's not fking cute. It like the "perverted character but it's FUNNY trope" but slightly worse because the punchline isn't being a pervert the punchline is being gay.

[LordVincent]

Self lubricating butt-holes are not a thing. It's actually really gross when I read a line commenting on how wet their butt is because they're 'obviously ready for the smex'

Instead if getting me interested in the scene it just makes me horrified because no... if your butt-hole is all hot bothered and wet you should probably not engage in sexual activities because you have mad diarrhea and you're about to turn this situation into a nightmarish mess.

HAHA I run into this problem too, every damn time I read a comic where they say "wow you are already so wet down here" (unless they say it after adding lube or something) I just go "WOW EW NO ESCAPE THAT BOOTY" because the only wetness I can imagine is either shit, or worse, BLOOD

Which I wish this didn't need to be said but BLOOD IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR LUBE AND IF YOUR PARTNER'S ASS IS BLEEDING THAT MEANS YOU SHOULD HAVE STOPPED LONG AGO

[ISNEKO]

Just thought I'd poke my head in here and saw "self-lubricating buttholes" and now I have spent all my laughter for the day.

[violin]

Instead if getting me interested in the scene it just makes me horrified because no... if your butt-hole is all hot bothered and wet you should probably not engage in sexual activities because you have mad diarrhea and you're about to turn this situation into a nightmarish mess.

/facepalm I don't read much BL myself but uh... self-lubricating buttholes is something that has never occurred to me as might be a thing and uh. EW. LOL. WTF?!?!?!?!!

[yozhikisblue]

My god. D:

Unintentionally evoking diarrhea is something I've seen come to think of it- I think I erased this from my mind for the sake of my own sanity. Pretty sure this is a case of the creator accidentally revealing their own lack of sexual experience. I used to work at a sexual education centre and weird misconceptions about anal sex were sadly common there too. Like- there is some natural lubrication- but not something you want to rely on exculsively. Down that path lies serious cause for injury- and if it's brutally painful- unless you're really into S/M and know what you're doing- stop? Foreplay is good for everyone! Also- STDs are a thing and it would be nice to see that referenced as a real concern for characters now and again?

[jurinova]

Oh lord, I'm glad I've missed these magical self-lubricating butts! But that just reminds me of how often I've seen comics using spit as lube. Nope nope nope.

[seru]

Since the origin of BL/Yaoi are mainly from straight women, they depict the "ukes" or bottoms as females. (Someone already mentioned the self lubricating assholes so I'm not going to mention than again XD)

In reality, bottoms need more preparation than females before sex. "Spontaneous" sex happens in real life but not quite a lot.

Despite my story's shortcomings and falling in your typical Yaoi/BL trope, a lot of people appreciate that I included douching in the story:

[LordVincent]

Yep, anal requires a lot more preparation to be done enjoyably (Something a lot of straight people don't understand and then they end up having horrible experiences when they try it out themselves... Srsly how hard is it to take 2 minutes to research a thing before trying it so you'll have more safe and enjoyable sex I don't get it).

Spontaneous gay sex can still be written, for writers trying to achieve it I would suggest expanding your view of sex beyond just lower body penetration. There are many ways in which two people can simultaneously please each other without anything below the waist needing to be penetrated.

So basically instead of
"Bro I got no lube"
"It's fine I'll just use my spit"

go for
"Bro I got no lube"
"It's fine I'll suck u"

or some other variation, it can be at least equally sexy without being disruptively inaccurate. Get creative!

[LordVincent]

Oh wait actually, education time! There are gay men who can have lower body penetrative sex without these extra preparations. They're called gay trans men (And I can imagine there are some intersex men out there with this ability as well).

Now biggest disclaimer of all is to not hop straight onto writing trans dudes into your adult bl stories without learning more about them first. Just like with gay cis men you need to know a little about how things work irl before approaching it.
The kinds of sex that trans men are comfortable with vary from person to person, and if you were to write such a character you would also need to do a bit of research into the many different types we come in depending on our goals with medical transition (or lack thereof). For example if you want a character that has genitalia the size of an "average cis man" you would need to look into erectile devices and phalloplasty. If you want a character that can get "naturally erect" you would need to look at metoidoplasty or just non-op trans ppl. And above all, absolutely do not everrrrrrr refer to any of our bodyparts with female gendered words. We will smite u.

Now I'm gonna get some other people telling me not to invite cis people to write trans characters because they're "bound to mess up", but I disagree. Just like my purpose of pointing out problems in cis yaoi trends isn't to push away straight women from writing it, I also don't want cis people to feel unwelcome to include trans people. I think engagement and communication between cisstraight people and gay/trans communities and our culture, and letting cisstraight people explore their interest in us, is an important part of the normalization that we need to move forward (and not get treated like aliens in the changing rooms).
My only purpose in pointing out problem with yaoi trends today is to hopefully improve on that presentation and understanding a bit.

[deltastic]

I find that a lot of the things that frustrate me about BL/GL comics are things that frustrate me about written romances in general, even straight ones: stalking and cruel behavior seen as romantic, one person wearing the other down into "giving them a chance" at a relationship, and unrealistic sex to name a few. Characters who are lauded as a good/positive couple but that lie to or manipulate one another for their own gains without consequences. Pretty much anything that is presented to be a normal/healthy relationship (or the main/good relationship of the story) but that are creepy or abusive gets my hackles up. This is way different than relationships that are supposed to be abnormal/dark/complicated- which I absolutely love- but too often I see stories that are romance and total fluff that have really... off things in them and the author seems not to realize. Context is key in a lot of those situations.

But I also don't see this as an issue of BL/GL, but sexist culture in general. I see these a lot more in straight romance and straight romcoms than I do specifically in BL/GL: if anything they're just following in the steps set for them by straight fiction, but held to an unfair higher standard. I think all of it should be improved, but it's not LGBT+ content's fault alone.

If anything, the one thing in GL that drives me personally bonkers is how wlw is generally seen as nothing but fluff, without much adult intimacy ever shown. The whole "men have sex: women cuddle" thing. But again, these are aping from straight sexist stereotypes about women, so not really surprised.

I don't know if the assertion that most BL/GL is written for/by straight women is really a thing, especially here in the land of webcomics. For my credentials, I'm a bi lady myself.

[Swamp]

Problems with GL
-It not existing
-Where are the butch girls? Please give me butch girls.
-The fact that it's GL being the center concept. I want to see girls kissing while having interesting problems that have nothing to do with liking girls. I think that's why I tend to shy away from the BL/GL lables. I'm not much of a romance reader. I like romance, but I like it as a B plot to a central drama where an emotional connection is built before a physical one. If it is a pure romance, I want something that would still have a plot if you took the gender aspect out. "they're gay" isn't a concept
-I'm also not huge on stuff that feels very self conscious about being representation. It can be a step to doing it well but... we should write diversity because the world is diverse. I feel like it should be the bar, not a selling point.
-This is the opposite of the lot of the forum, but I want more dark GL! I don't mean I want stories where abuse is framed as romantic. I like disaster humans being bad at romance and able to make mistakes. I like realistic, healthy relationships that get into how hard life can be and how relationships give us strength. And sometimes I want skeevy shit that knows it's skeevy shit. GL leans to the cute and fluffy or the A Straight Dude Wrote This For Porn (I am not purely against smutty GL by dudes. I love Sunstone, and some others. I just could pass on blank faced girls with big eyes and no personalities or plotlines). I just... am not into cute slice of life stuff, and it feels like whenever a GL steps outside of Cute and Inoffensive, there's a queue of people lining up to decry it.
-On the dude porn end, I get super upset by the "lesbian gets turned on in locker room". Locker rooms are a place of internalized homophobia, terror, and changing in the bathroom stall to me. Like... the predatory lesbian thing in general (I spent so long being terrified I was 'taking advantage' if I thought a girl was pretty), but that context especially grinds my gears.

[MissMagicGirl]

I feel like in much GL and especially BL there is so strong gender roles even though they are about gay couples. Its like you always know who is the "man" and who is the "woman" in the most old fashioned traditional sense of the words which feels so dated. I want characters that are real people. Who has many sides to them and are part of a larger story and not "just" a romance.

When making my own comic I sort of did the GL-comic I would like myself. I started it off as a comedy fantasy adventure. Once the characters where established as people I started to analyze potential romance possibilities. So it is kind of a slow burn relationship and I like that. There is nothing wrong with the romance being in focus from the start but I kind of wanted a romance that was intergrated into a larger story that could stand on its own. I personally like it when romance is a part of a larger story and not what the entire thing is about. I feel like so much more chemistry can develop between characters then. Hopefully I am succeeding ^^

[ratscout]

I'm straight so I don't know if I should comment on this, but for BL in particular, I just know what I want to see less of and it's the main character ending up with their damned rapist. As a student psychologist I know the data and the amount of young men who were assaulted when they were underage correlates strongly with their homosexuality. I think it would be nice for them to have stories about a healthy relationship <3. Or maybe, more stories where the main character realizes they're being abused and they exit the relationship safely and fall in love with someone who treats them well.

[sararosebr]

I read a lot more of BL when I was younger and I noticed something that kind of freaks me out now that I noticed that was a thing was gang rape. Like usually the submissive one was kidnapped and gang raped so the dominant could rescue them and have sex. Only once I noticed that the couple tried to deal with the trauma, and it was in a COD dōjinshi(????). Another is using drugs to make them want to do this? Like same situation, but given an injection to love it.

Like I just want to read one where the couple maybe went through some hard times, maybe a fight, but realize they love each other and the conflict ends and ride off into the sunset after a kiss and loving look in the other's eyes.
Or just once them realizing they don't need to be in love to be happy? Like, isn't it okay to just be friends? Or is finding one's self that wrong?

[NickRowler]

I haven't read a lot of BL but of I read I wish people would stop trivializing depression and trauma. I've come across several which were about a clinically depressed boy who has another boy come along and "save him". Yet the author seems to avoid talking about how the character was about to kill himself. Like that stuff doesn't magically disappear once you get into a relationship. And I guess this might tie into other people's complaints about rape. Rape traumatizes most people, it is not something you gloss over.

I also wish BL wasn't so fetishy. I know some of it can by the author's fault however I heard stories about author's avoiding this and being met with obnoxious fans demanding their smut.

For a super super personal complaint. I really wish there was a larger variety of art styles with BL. Most of it tends to be anime with soft colors. I just wish people were more experimental.

[lunaartemisasama]

Nowadays I prefer GL stories from Lezhin. It's not the classic high school yuri because the protagonists are adults lol. You will probably not see so much butch girls, most of them are femme and look like supermodels (and I have mixed feelings about that XD).

From here, I would recommend

Our Colors :: Chapter 21 | Tapas

Wish You Were Gone | Tapas

I like how in the first one there are more boyish girls, the story is kind of confusing but I feel it has potential.

The second one is more the classic fluffy GL but I like that the main characters have a personality XD.

[violin]

I was re-skimming through this thread and your comment about "bearish" tastes suddenly reminded me of a dating sim I saw once called Dream Daddy

That's right, a variety of dateable and diverse dads! I believe you are also a dad (you can create your own character) and you're looking to date one of the other dads. I've never played it myself but I heard it had pretty good story and reviews for being a game out of a small indie studio. (There's also the additional aspect of managing kids and meeting other dad's kids which sounds cool)