LGBTQ folks, what frustrates you about BL/GL and what would you like to see more of?

The most frustrating thing about that. Is that usually body hair is not drawn to save time when drawing because it's not a necessary detail. So when you go through the trouble of adding it in every panel it's pretty annoying getting told "ewww that's gross" after the extra effort you put in.

Additionally, but not one I have run into a lot. Comics that will have a character comment on another's body hair... only there will be no actually body hair in the drawings. It's just... why bring it up in the dialogue if it's not there???

@Kura

Same. As much as I want to have tattoos drawn on a character, it will be excruciatingly painful to draw every damn panel XD

The lack of body hair pretty much stems from speed and efficiency when drawing comics.

Hello, not sure if this can be related to actual comic writing, but I thought it was a concern. If not, please don't bash me

This is actually for those who create 18+ material -
When creating any sex related scene, please consider safety issues like a possible contraction of STDs. Not all readers who agree that they are 18+ are actually going to be 18+. There are also 11 year-old children who read explicit content. I've spoken to one of them and they said they didn't receive any sexual education. They didn't know that you can get diseases from unprotected sex. There are also a lot of adults who don't know about STDs and did not receive proper education

So please put a condom or some sort of protection on your characters if possible

@joori

18+ content or adult material are intended for mature audiences. One of my pet peeves is why do creators have to shoulder the responsibility of censoring or filtering their content for minors...when it's the responsibility of their parents to monitor their internet usage and consumption.

There is nothing wrong with using condoms. My characters do use them, but I get a lot of feedback from paid readers that the condoms make it less hot for them.

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People who think condoms ruin the sex haven't seen this scene.

57

Let us pray for those poor souls.

ALSO
In the case of cis gay sex, besides protecting from STDs condoms just make things a lot more convenient in terms of cleanup.

And then there's the issue of UTIs in men who engage in anal sex...

@LordVincent

Doing it like that in real life is not advisable either. It can cause tears to the condom. Plus, the taste of condom + lube inside taste nasty.

Can't say shit when I do it too.

TROLOLOLOLL

Yeah but fiction is fiction shrugs It looked sexy and it's for fantasy, so let us have it

As far as I'm concerned, things like these should be taught in schools without the option for parents to opt their kids out of it.

Yeah, like I get that a lot of kids learn about sex from porn, and that's fucked up. And normalizing condom use is definitely a good thing. But I also don't think it should be on porn authors to tailor their content based on the assumption that literal children are reading. I try really hard to keep kids from reading my 18+ writing

Personally I usually leave condoms out of my smutty art? A lot of it is I'm writing in a literal fantasy setting with elves and dragons and shit and not having to worry about STDs is kind of a nice fantasy. I also like drawing fluids and monster dicks so ¯_(ツ)_/¯ If I was writing in a realistic setting I'd for sure include them.

Bare is hot, I don't want to deny that.
BL is becoming higher in demand and more common, which will also become more common with the general public. I'm just a little worried. Sorry if I offended anyone

I think most people have covered problems they have with it, straight people who don't understand gay people, no understanding of sexual assault etc. etc.

in terms of things I wanna see, I just kinda want to see some campy gay shit ala queer 70s/60s exploitation films. If you're gonna make the gayest shit alive there should be more kitschy insanity, more lesbian robot T-rexs fighting crossdressing aliens from space. I'd get behind that any day. A lot of lgbt stuff I see is rather mundane, I wanna see more campy stuff for a change.

I'd love to see more buff studs, personally, as I like my men (and women) with some meat on their bones. Don't get me wrong, I like waifish characters too, but I can only live on cute for so long until I crave some rougher action. >.< That sounds so bad. Which is not to say I want rape and assault. Very much no. Just, more men and fewer boys, I guess? (ugh, I am very inarticulate for a writer, aren't I?)

More flirting, more chemistry, more casual touching, more playfulness and dating wouldn't hurt either. And of course I am an adult and I enjoy them adult themes.

I think that there's been a lot of increase in more positive f/f comics (at least, I've seen so on Tumblr, more one-shot types) but an odd thing I've noticed or felt is a lack of... personality? in most of the main characters.
In so many ways LGBTQ+ themed comics are so heavily monitored (somewhat understandably, given the turbulent past and delicate nature of the community) that I feel like sometimes, artists/authors are either a little bit stifled or afraid to put in certain characteristics. Or just fear having something that would result in a lengthy call out post when a character arc isn't yet fully resolved?
I've read a fair few comics where I've not been able to discern either characters personality much, if at all.

Like of course, I'm not advocating for inserting the negative things that have been previously discussed as being obviously troublesome, but I like a good character arc. When a character's main flaw is that she's just too lovestruck or too friendly to everyone and pets too many dogs or just too hardworking and punctual (like you're answering an interviewer for your next job, haha) then I kind of wish for there to be more room for the characters to grow.

I don't know how prominent this is in m/m stories (early 2000s era yaoiz xD and lemon/lime kind of chased me off, thus prompting a slow and overly cautious return). But I'm curious if it's just me being unlucky with the comics I've read, or a more general trend.

nope, you're not just lucky, the whole "character is too perfect, can't have any flaws and can't have any struggles" thing is a reoccuring problem in gay or other minority media that doesn't fall into the more traditional negative tendencies. I hate to say it but I think it's an immediate result of call out culture and some vocal extremists in said minority groups taking things to excess and seeing "problematic" things in literally everything. An observation that probably sounds very odd coming from me of all people, but that should tell you just how much of a real problem this is becoming.

Even as a transgender gay person myself I constantly feel the pressure of the radicals when my stories or my life (yes, even my life) don't perfectly appeal to their idea of gay identities, gender politics or other minority issues.
I can't let character x die because they're a lesbian and that would put it in the "bury your gays" trope. Nevermind the fact that character q is also a lesbian and doesn't die.
I can't let character y have an agressive tendency because they have dark skin and it would play into negative stereotypes. Nevermind the fact that character o is also dark skinned and is extremely careful and sweet.
I can't let character z be predatory because he's gay and that would confirm the common misconception that gay men are predatory. Nevermind the fact that I have too many other gay characters to even begin to count, who are not predatory.
I can't let a transgender character- you get what I mean.

All of this prompts me to ask the question: If we are so damn caught up in "avoiding stereotypes" that the only people who can have interesting character traits and plotlines are cis white straight people, then 1. what does that do for normalization?, and 2. how is this not effectively discriminatory in and of itself?
Sometimes good intentions have a hurtful outcome. Even when performed by minorities themselves.

As far as I'm concerned the cure to these problems isn't to effectively cease to use certain character trait combinations entirely, it isn't to condemn non minority people for their work in regards to our topics, none of that. The cure lies in providing variety. If your characters come in different personalities, appearances, sexualities, genders, etc all in varying combinations, then it doesn't matter if some of those characters fall into tropes or other negative representation because the general takeaway won't be that said trope or representation is the norm.

Alright kids -cracks fingers- prepare for an essay:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the fact that there is a dedicated BL category, but not a dedicated GL or LGBT+ category says a lot about Tapas and the state of the community in general

I’ll start this by saying that there are several BL/GL creators who do right by the LGBT+ community and are writing stories that prominently feature healthy, sex-positive relationships that aren’t marred by stereotypes, misinformation, and sexism. I appreciate what they’re doing and respect their right to do it.

However, way too many BL/GL stories are fetishistic, poorly researched, largely exploitative, and contribute to the cultural stigma that being part of the LGBT+ community is “just a sex thing.” As it’s been mentioned previously on this thread, the roots of BL/GL have been written primarily by straight people, for straight people. I don’t necessarily have a problem with any person regardless of sexual orientation writing about or enjoying LGBT+ characters/stories (god knows we need more of them), but it’s dangerous to co-opt the lives and experiences of real people without knowing what the hell you’re talking about.

People always play the “it’s just media! It’s just for fun!” card, but no. There’s no such thing as “just for fun” media. Everything we create reflects our cultural landscape and informs how we treat one another in real life.

Rape and coercion contribute to the idea that straight people are unsafe around gay people and we are just waiting for you to let your guard down so we can have sex with you4. (The whole bathroom debate in America, anyone?2)

Shota/Lolicon contribute to the idea that gay people are sexual predators and unsafe to be around children.2

Seme/Top/Uke/Bottom dynamics contribute to the idea that gay relationships need to fit into a heteronormative box to “make sense” and be considered valid3 (and the even more toxic idea that both parties would be totally straight if it weren’t for their “unbridled sexual appetite”4)

And this isn’t even touching on the rampant misogyny and bi-erasure.

To a flippant creator, it doesn’t matter! You’re just having fun! But to an actual real life queer person, you’re telling the next man who tries to hit on me that I would be totally cool to make out with another woman in front of him for his benefit because for me it’s “just a sex thing.” Write whatever you want, but for the love of god, write it responsibly.

Interesting to see this thread keep being revived with additional perspectives. I think this is a sign that LGBTQ representation in BL/GL is actually a pretty sore topic?

In light of talking about the actual real-life repercussions of shallow or fetishistic representation- I can't speak to the effect on "society as a whole"- I'm very cautious about making that kind of generalization. But I can share a personal story of a situation in which the depiction of characters in certain kinds of BL actually had a direct negative impact.

Roughly a year ago, my partner and I went to an anime-themed convention (which shall go unnamed for the purpose of this story). The convention had a panel in their schedule about LGBTQ characters in comics. I was very excited about this panel, and took my partner- who was a great deal more cynical about it- along for the ride. The panel was in a separate building- a conference room in one of the surrounding hotels.

The first thing we noticed, when we got to the top of the stairs, was that all of the attendees of the panel seemed to be women. Nothing especially odd about this- different panels at the convention had drawn different kinds of crowds. But it did start to get a little strange when we realized that we were getting a lot of attention. The leering smiles and blatant we-think-they-can't-hear-us whispering kind of attention. Several women approached me in particular. I didn't mind them complimenting my outfit or hair- but I got a whole lot less comfortable when they felt it was okay to reach out and touch me- a complete stranger- inform me how "cute" I was- and try to take not-so-secret pictures of my partner and I on their phones. This happened several times while we waited for the panel to begin. To clarify, I wasn't wearing any kind of cosplay. I had taken more care with my appearance because this was an occasion, but this was still my regular, casual daywear.

When the panel finally began, there was only one queer creator among the five panelists- an American man who had written a superhero story featuring a gay protagonist. He spoke briefly about his comic, and why he had written it. The other panelists all introduced themselves as fans of LGBTQ comics who neither wrote nor illustrated comics themselves. It very quickly became clear that by "LGBTQ comics" they actually meant BL. Once the topic had moved on from the single queer creator on the panel onto discussing BL manga, the room became very animated. The discussion immediately turned to what kind of things the audience and panelists considered "hot", interspersed with genuine- I would describe it as- excited screaming?

My partner and I felt very out of place- but at the same time, we had positioned ourselves in such a way that leaving would involve walking the whole span of the room. Our presence was very conspicuous (as the only masculine-presenting people in the room). There were people openly gawking at us, discussing our relative attractiveness, and what characters we reminded them of. Now- I have lived as a woman (I'm a transgender man, though I also identify as androgyne/androgynous)- and I'm not going to go into detail about my experiences, but I'd been through a lot- and despite that- I don't think I had ever felt so openly and unapologetically fetishized in my life before that point. It was deeply uncomfortable.

Frankly, the whole situation felt surreal. I kind of froze up. I had to be "snapped out of it" by a friend who my partner had been texting. He dragged us out of there and we had brunch with him in the hotel restaurant downstairs. I still couldn't really believe what had happened, and what's more- I felt terrible for dragging my partner to this thing with the promise of "meeting other queer creators".

So there you have it. I want to add here that I try to be a positive person. I believe anyone can write about anything, regardless of identity. I don't have harbour any ill will whatsoever towards people who write or read BL for fun. I'm always glad for people who can find something they enjoy and form a community around that hobby. But based on this experience, it also became apparent to me that many of the people in that room didn't see me or my partner as real, living humans. They were treating us like fictional characters. I still experience a certain degree of wariness around BL fans as a result. The other issue, from my perspective- is that the topic of "LGBTQ characters" was being used as a cover for discussing BL. No real effort was made to invite queer creators to the discussion. Only cisgender gay men were even brought up- and they were discussed purely as sex objects, so I can't sincerely say they got any representation here either.

Anyway, I hope that wasn't a case of me oversharing. It seemed on-topic. To conclude, I'd just like to say that everyone is entitled to enjoy what they enjoy- but please be mindful of how you behave around and treat other people. We are all human. This topic is a fantastic example, in my opinion, of how you can open a discussion to LGBTQ people and make them feel welcome. I would love to see more real life panels that do the same.