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Aug 2021

Most collaborations are about one person trying to execute a particular vision, and seeking outside talent to help realize that vision, in which case outside talent should be paid.

I think we also need to recognize that the reality of the situation is there are simply more writers who desire the contribution of artists to their storytelling than the reverse, which puts a lot of the "pay creative people for their work" pressure on these writers. ((Though reminder that many of these types of collaboration are actually from people with an idea, and no real writing experience, but they present themselves as writers)) This does not mean artists are entitled to free writing, just that the odds of a writer being willing to contribute their writing for free are probably higher. Which gets us into the myriad of issues with free collaboration.

So it's a sticky wicket. I hope most, if not all, of us realize artists and writers are of equal creative value. Whoever is offering a service should be paid.

Learning from mistakes and acknowledge mistakes is what keeps us vice.

Apology accepted.

Read through that thread & didn't notice anyone actually say writers should not be paid. Saw a lot of opinions to the contrary with some nuances based on whose ideas were being written, etc.

That's because the commenter deleted their statement and have made a new one here clarifying things, if you can read.

Sorry, you linked to a thread that doesn't contain the alleged "writers shouldn't be paid" statement but I can't find it & I wanted to see it. Who was it that deleted their statement?

And thanks so much for the snark.

Thank you! So, what was it that you actually said, because I can't see it and I have a half-suspicion this thread is about a misunderstanding of it.

I'll pm you as I wish to not take up space here. What I said was wrong and there might be a slight misunderstanding but I did say some things that I do regret and see error in my ways.

Yes, writers should be paid. Writing and creating is work after all. However it depends on who is paying a writer.

The writer completely owns their own intellectual property and anyone wishing to use that property should pay the writer in order for that use. However if the writer is asking for someone else’s labor or talent to help bring their vision to life then the writer should be paying the person whose labor is being used. So if a writer wants an artist, since the writer is asking for the artist’s talent and labor the writer needs to pay the artist, not the other way around.

After getting some info on what had been said, it appears there never was an unconditional statement that actually said, "writers shouldn't be paid", after all. It was more like what you just explained.

Yep. To me, it didn't seem possible anyone in the creative communities would actually hold such an unnuanced opinon about writers. I figured there had to be more shades of gray there, somewhere.

24 days later

Most people don't value writers and because of this not many people really want to pay them to write. You can see it here, the way people on this forum react to collaboration post with a artist seeking a writer without any mention of pay is completely different than how someone would react to a post by a writer looking for an artist without mentioning pay.

though, you don't have to be a great writer to get popular you usually just have a to draw decently and have some kind of romance or fantasy plot.

:expressionless: please don't with this - it's a slap to all the hard work those popular creators put in as well as the work a person has to put in to "just draw decently." Annnd isn't true or constructive.

One thing that strikes me about unpaid collaboration posts that I've seen here (and personally I don't have a problem with unpaid collaborations as long as it's really a collaboration - I'm in one, it's great and I know the value of my writer is immense - though I think they're very fragile unless there's some outside factors) is that it's definitely easier for artists to pitch. All we have to do is post samples of our work and writers can see our skills and style and decide if we seem like a good fit. I glance through most of the collab posts from writers and have seen very few that look like interesting pitches. These creative projects take so much effort from both sides - if I was looking for a new writer, I'd want to be damn sure that I'm excited about their vision and if they can't get their vision across and make it sound compelling in a post, I'm not going to trust that they write well or can get their story across either.

Like we could be looking at potential for hours and hours and hours over months or even years of effort and all that's in the post is that you (not you, spiderbrah, but some of these posts) have a story idea that's gonna be big so dm you for details. Like hell no, I'm not wasting my time - I could be off practicing hands or noses.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the reactions to posts that are in-depth, well written, reasonable (as in, actually sounds like collaboration, not just "execute my vision") and contain links to work (novel, script, samples) that artists can look at and determine fit have been significantly more favorable. And so are reactions to projects that are short, because they don't require such a strong commitment.

I disagree I've seen post post collabs that are 1 or 2 pages long that don't get a response. I've also seen people post one shots where they have links to scripts. I agree most don't have interesting pitches but even the ones that do don't get the time of day.

Sorry if I wasn't super clear (not a very good writer myself :sweat_02:). I wasn't trying to imply that putting effort into a pitch would necessarily lead to a collaboration. Just like making a really detailed commission sheet doesn't mean I'm going to get commissioned - wouldn't that be nice lol XD. Just that putting in the effort is a prerequisite. I've seen some people connect on here - not sure how it worked out, so I can't comment on that. But some of those posts do get responses!

And I sympathize - like I noted, I think it's a quite bit harder for writers to make a compelling pitch in this format.

Yeah, just feels impossible most days. That's why I'm going to make a paid post after I finish three more outlines and a script. I need to find a partner but I can't get attention without money upfront.