So about fantasy

hbldr 2020-04-24 19:31:31 UTC #12

i did not expect six

Kelheor 2020-04-24 19:35:30 UTC #13

How about this

Rhonder 2020-04-24 19:35:51 UTC #14

A lot of folks rightfully warn about too much world building/lore (especially if crammed into the story itself- it's totally okay to think about and develop these things without it all being explicitly being present!) but I'll offer the experience of someone on the other side of the stick, not enough world building.

A pitfall that I'm experiencing with my current comic is that the world building is rather half-baked in a lot of ways and thus I don't think I'll be continuing the series after I complete the upcoming season/arc. The reason being: I initially wrote this world simply as a vessel to tell a short one-shot and get my feet wet in webcomics, so like literally everything about the world was designed to service this specific story and I also conceptualized the whole thing in a pretty short span of time, like 2-3 weeks maybe?

But what I'm finding now as I write the next part is that there's just a lot of inconsistencies or luke-warm ideas that I imagine will only continue to stand out more the further I go. I can't help but feel as though if I had spent some more time just setting up the basic rules and concepts of this world the whole thing might feel more cohesive... but alas it was always kinda meant to be a "one and done" kind of deal lol.

So yeah, I think that's what I'll take moving forward before starting another fantasy project- even if it's for a short story- is to just spend a little more time setting up a solid foundation to build upon. I think it's still fine to explore and develop intricacies as you go- I could never be one of those authors that literally develops the entire world before getting started, I think- but you have to have solid ideas and rules in place first to make everything feel cohesive

Eskhar 2020-04-24 20:11:15 UTC #15

I totally agree with Rhonder ! Someone told me one day having a thorough lore, (even facts that are not going to appear in the story) helps a lot to avoid inconsistencies.
I don't think it's quite necessary for short stories, but for long series, it helps a lot.

And as a reader, I love lore. Not too much in one go (like Tolkien with his Shire @___@), of course, but unique lore / world can give a lot of appeal. The hardest part is building it through the whole story, or even in small details that could be ignored in a fast reading, but will reveal themselves with a second one.
Characters are still the most important I think. I don't really mind multiple POV, but some stories are more suited to it than other. The downfall side is making all of theses characters likable (in a good or bad way) for the reader. That's hard.

Iris-Grimoire 2020-04-24 20:13:26 UTC #16

Be careful with what you USE in your worldbuilding. It doesn't matter how much you make, any hobby works nowadays and it's equally valid with others, but don't let it display so much in your stories that it consumes the plot and characters. No 50 page prologue detailing how the gods created the world, got betrayed by Fantasy Satan, and the various races took sides in all of it - unless it's about said gods/not-satan. Doesn't mean you can't make that story for yourself! But if it's about farmboy who learns how to shoot fireball, better to stick your plot to things getting set on fire, and making scenes that are relevant to that or the characters that get involved in it.

rajillustration 2020-04-24 22:09:38 UTC #17

I like to think of it as worldbuilding is for you, the author--but not for the story. Sometimes I'll be writing a part and I'll realize "ah, my characters are just telling me, the author, what to do next by explaining my world." And that's a good sign to store that segment somewhere else and go back to writing the story.

But my advice for a fantasy comic is to limit yourself--you can keep convoluting and twisting things forever, but you do need to reign it in, or you end up with what happened to LOST and Once Upon a Time--just a complete mess that never had a good solid ending.

Cavechan 2020-04-24 22:12:34 UTC #18

WHAT?! NOOOOoooOOoooooooooo

Rhonder 2020-04-24 22:30:40 UTC #19

We'll see how things are looking in 2021 but those are my current feelings- I have loads more story ideas for the universe but I don't have as much faith in the world building recently Either way gonna try and knock S2 out of the park~

Pomms 2020-04-25 00:22:29 UTC #20

All of this, pretty much!

mikeampao1 2020-04-25 00:54:35 UTC #21

I tried to avoid to explain the lore/world building first like "In the Beginning blah blah!" so it can't overwhelm the readers and start first with a bang. World building is not easy and one of the hardest to make stories but as a fan of Geography i'm looking forward on how far it can go to my comic. If you are inconsistent then just don't.

I really do love to write multiple POV's it helps me convenient to write the lores and such without needing to narrate everything while there is action going on. It needs to be interesting and be relevant just like i had 2 Chapters for solely dedicated to that character and after it switch to MC POV's.

MermaWisdo 2020-04-25 01:17:30 UTC #22

I wanna say is try to avoid cliches? I know they're easy to use but sometimes it's over played. Like the cliche of "some ordinary person is actually powerful so-so and don't know it yet" or "someone is secretly something and has to hide it".This is personally me, but I like when the protagonist is an ordinary person who still remains the same in a world that is full of magic; despite all the stuff they go through, they still remain that same person with a changed perspective or something.

indagold 2020-04-25 03:42:56 UTC #23

If I can think of anything when it comes to fantasy is all the time wasted on the environment, extensive lore, races, creatures and world is utterly pointless and useless when your story is boring as all hell. A good example is this film:

the universe is just set pieces for an otherwise bland story and every, single, goddamn fantasy story I see suffers the same problem: they're more concerned about deep™ lore™© then they are about just having a simple story and characters that connects it all. Honestly you can go very barebones when it comes to fantasy, it doesn't need to be this complex world you focus on and neglect the main plot. Sure you didn't name and categorize all the billions of species or thousands of years of history but if you put more effort into a story with a beginning, middle and end, the readers wouldn't care. Start small and keep it simple and you'll be rewarded in time.

NickRowler 2020-04-25 04:09:00 UTC #24

-Don't be too caught up in preexisting lore. Not all mermaids need to be like the Little Mermaid. Not all vampires need to be like Dracula. Not all fairies need to be like Tinker Bell. I think you should allow yourself some wiggle room to take magical creatures in your own directions and be creative about it.

-Using made up substitute words should be done when it makes sense. If fairy folk meet humans for the first time and call them "No-Winged", OK that makes sense. However if they are all the sun "Soolaloo" and swords "Wapilukoo", you are just going to confuse your readers. Just call them by their English names.

darkone4587 2020-04-25 05:35:22 UTC #25

I say don't be bogged down by standard convention when it comes to Fantasy Tropes.
Like Elves don't have to be flower children and Mermaids don't always have to have a human top half and fish bottom half and the like.

MermaWisdo 2020-04-25 05:45:13 UTC #26

I just thought of one thing since I'm creating a fantasy webcomic: don't overwhelm yourself with creatures. What's great about the fantasy genre is it gives a huge variety of ideas to work from. Of course, you want your nomhuman creatures but try not to throw every creature you can into the story. You don't overwhelm yourself! For my story I'm only using fairies, elves, kirin, centaurs, animals that have different features (like a cat with horns or deer with fangs)

ratscout 2020-04-25 06:22:49 UTC #27

Hmmm... Just try to make it as interesting as possible? I feel like everyone tries to be Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings when it comes to fantasy, so I would steer as far away from those as possible and try to make it so that your story comes from a genuine place instead of wanting to copy something to be popular (I feel like stories on Tapas do that a lot...). I think you should just pick a theme you find interesting and build the story out based on that. Bottom line, you gotta have passion for what you're writing. I don't consider Game of Thrones to be the most original fantasy ever, but it's the little details in it that set it apart and made it good. I really don't like to give hard and fast rules about writing in general, because anything can work. It just depends on how it's done. Go with your heart, I guess. XD

AWFrasier 2020-04-25 06:41:54 UTC #28

No matter how good your world-building is, it won't matter if you can't tell a compelling story. So don't forget the story and the characters. You're still here to entertain people and the vast majority won't be, if it's basically just a world-building book.

Don't info dump your lore. Weave it into the story as you're telling it. Don't worry, readers don't mind not knowing the entire world and how it's built from page 1. It's also one of the best things reading fantasy, slowly getting to know the world as you're getting to know the characters.

Think about your choices. Why is your society built the way it is? Religion? Colonilisation? Natural disasters? Why is their society engaging in this or that thought process? Is there classicism, sexism, homophobia, racism? Why? What's it built on? Where did it start?

Researching why our world is the way it is today is actually good research into how to build your own world. Ours has been heavily influenced by certain nations conquering others. Crusades have had a big influence on certain countries as well. Does your world have a religion that is pushed or forced on people who don't share the same religion?

Lots of things to think about when you build a world. And you don't have to follow our world, our societal constructions, economical constructions, or even our perception of... Anything, really. Gender roles don't have to be the same. Get creative with it! And even if you don't explain why your world is the way it is in the story, it's still very useful for you to know.

Hope that helps!

darthmongoose 2020-04-25 06:49:24 UTC #29

My biggest beefs with the Fantasy Genre:

This one has come up a lot in the thread, but yeah, thinking having lots of complex lore makes your Fantasy story deep and clever and forgetting to actually tell a story. Lore that isn't either directly relevent to the character's situation, quest or how they're going to eventually solve it, OR a fun background detail mentioned in passing (or drawn in a background) just slows everything down.
Lack of critical examination of tropes. Goblins are "always Evil"... oh, are they? Wow, how convenient! There's an entire race of sentient humanoids out that that you are totally justified in killing without remorse because in this universe black and white morality, overseen by perfect, "Good" deities who provably exist is a thing, and they say "yep, it's totes okay to enjoy stabbing and disembowelling these little green people who are capable of expressing themselves through speech and have a culture and religion because they're EVIL. Evil is just baked into them".
Oh and also the "savage" green people might also er... wear clothes or speak in a way that... err... evokes certain... cultures. But anyone who brings this up, even people from those actual cultures will be descended upon by angry people who don't like having to examine the media they consume and question it. "They're just goblins! The book says they're evil so the good guys are allowed to kill them! Stop ruining my fantasy of being a heroic warrior who murders people who look different for righteous reasons and doesn't have to ask uncomfortable questions about imperialism!" If the goblins are wearing Tiki masks and have shamans... if the evil undead worshipping culture happen to look and dress like egyptians while the noble people of the Kingdom of Brightshire are blue eyed, and dress, eat and act like Europeans... Why did the creators make it that way? Especially if the heroes are framed as good for going in and killing these "bad guys" with impunity? Oh... I see, the gods are sure the goblins have WMDs so we'd better invade them, huh?
Medieval stasis. This kingdom has been culturally and technologically medieval for 1000+ years? .... seriously? The medieval period was one of a lot of technological development. Even more... they have freaking MAGIC!? The elves live in a post-scarcity culture with lifespans of multiple centuries but their arts are so stagnant they're still listening to the same boring harp music from thousands of years ago? They have literally nothing to do but make art and experiment with science! It'd be the Renaissance or the Edo period on steroids!
The only settings where being stuck in the medieval period, or just living in the ruins of a more advanced civilisation they don't understand without progressing at all makes sense are ones of constant wars and monster attacks where the people just don't have time to do more than just survive with what they have and can't easily travel or communicate.

AVXP 2020-04-25 08:03:11 UTC #30

You just made this thread interesting.

I mean, it started as just 1 more "Name all the tropes you hate!" but you go steering it into new territory.
And so, I would challenge you --
What goes in place of these tropes that NOT change the fundamental story?

And so, there is writer-based push back for why these tropes are used. And mostly, I call these mechanisms.
These are the parts that make the entire machine work.
It's easy to say remove this and that part, but how do you get the machine to work the same way?

For the thing of good guys versus a nameless/faceless army...usually the horde concept or hive mind. (One I dislike too)
If you show any (humanity) qualities that could garner sympathy or empathy, you break the good versus evil and slide towards the 'war is bad' end, which, I say, is a different type of moral to the story.

--
What people miss is the mechanism. They only show the enlisted or soldier class of the enemy. No generals debating the war or people back home wondering if their army is doing the right thing. So the mechanism is not THE ENTIRE PEOPLE are evil, but instead, we're only going to show you the evil ones. So anybody that shows up- signed up for this. lol

The race thing aint going no where.
But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Lol, not lol.
Great insight. I need to read some of your reviews and see if this translates.

darthmongoose 2020-04-25 08:17:33 UTC #31

It's a really tricky discussion because it's a valid question to ask:
"If we get rid of the colonialist/imperialist themes, does the entire Fantasy genre cease to function?"

Some people on my twitter timeline with particularly strong views would argue that the entire concept in Fantasy of there being different species of human-like beings who all have characteristics decided by their species, and especially if they're called "races" as they were in Tolkien, which spilled over into the genre as a whole, is just inherently problematic. It's a really sticky issue that gets debated a lot.

The other point is of course how much of the Fantasy genre follows this colonialist sort of model, where the hero boldly ventures into ancient ruins in unknown territory to rescue lost treasures from monsters and the barbaric natives. It's very hard to unpick that from the fact that... you know, white people thought we were doing that when we barged into Egyptian tombs, nicked all their gold and flew it back over here to put in the British Museum. My ancestors framed these actions as "heroic", but now the descendants of those "savage natives" (as they were framed in our white british narrative) are saying "excuse me, we'd quite like our cultural artifacts back, you stole them and they had cultural significance to us before you decided to make them a symbol of how adventurous and strong you are".
Do the adventurers have the right to just bust into places and take the treasure for themselves? Does the narrative conveniently avoid this question by having the keepers of the treasures be "evil" and so an allowed target?

This is why the Fantasy genre is such a mess. Even Ursula K Le Guin's work, which is less problematic than a lot of other white Fantasy writers, has problematic elements. It's such an easy genre to make without thinking critically, but it's also a very hard genre to think through the complex rammifications of because it so often deals in the fates of kingdoms.