Tapas Creator Incubator Announcement: UPDATE: THANK YOU!

[kurori]

This is a great idea! I can't move to the US tho, so who ever takes part in this campain - I wish you good luck!

[respheal]

So I'm not misunderstood (because lord knows I've been criticizing a lot here), I think this is a great opportunity and I'd love to see it work out. I would LOVE that. I'm also not applying because A) I have a full time job that I rather like B) with that job I can only produce ~10 panels/week C) I'm a newb artist and don't think I'd have a chance in the face of other creators' skills. So I'm concerned for the sake of my fellow creators precisely because I want this to work out in everyone's favor.

My concerns comes from stuff like this:

That's a good question - I'll inquire about that.

This was the first red flag to me because my question about the tax and benefits situation of applicants is, well, kind of important and I came into this thinking that surely that was a question that there was already an answer for. (If there's an answer now that'd be great.)

What this program is are for artists who don't have the financial means to stop full time from another job to do comics full time and risk having no income.

So applicants need either assurance that they could quit their full-time job to pursue this (with the consideration that this is a temporary thing and they'd be back to job-hunting after 3-6 months), that it would be a worthy financial substitute for a full-time job, or the workload needs to be dropped significantly (to account for the creator maintaining their full-time job or student status). The applicant needs to be able to produce 600 panels in 13-26 weeks. Quite frankly, that's insanity to manage while also working another job to support oneself financially.

Considering the workload, does Tapas have a quote regarding what the minimum stipend might be? As stated before, it's being considered on a case-by-case basis, but it would be nice for applicants to know what the minimum they can expect might be. @michaelson?

[hades]

Creators, yes you are important, but just because you are important doesn't mean you are always a good investment. Tapas is taking on a big risk, respect them for that

EDIT
Just because creators are a risk, doesn't mean they aren't worth more then stipends and half an IP.

[kabocha]

Tapas should do everyone a favor and automatically write in a termination clause.

It'd be pretty great if we could... y'know, see a sample contract. And let folks decide based on that. Because they did say it's negotiable, and a well-written rights-reversion clause would be FANTASTIC.

Out of curiosity, @GoldenPlume--- you're a premium creator, right? Are you able to share insight into your experiences working with Tapas? What kind of rights reversions and ownership/revenue share are in any contracts you have with Tap? Or is there a strict NDA? Or do you not have a contract at all?

I do think there's still a fair bit about this which comes from the fact that Tapas never did answer important questions from a few months ago. They lost a fair bit of good will, and the level of distrust stems from that, I'd wager.

[sandpaperdaisy]

Yeah, I'm gathering that this might be for people who don't have a particularly well-paying and/or secure full-time job? Or perhaps a job they hate. I could see in that case where it would be an appealing alternative.

It doesn't necessarily sound like an ideal offer for someone in a well-paying job they love, unless the production level could be SIGNIFICANTLY modified to the point that you could work with Tapas while retaining your existing job. That's just what I'm gathering, so if someone else got a very different impression I'd love to hear your opinion too!

Agree 1000% with @GoldenPlume about the necessity of a termination clause. Without it, creators risk losing their comic if (God forbid) something happens to Tapas, as we saw with TokyoPop. I doubt Tapas would wish that on anyone, and it's completely contrary to their stated goal of giving creators the means to finally finish that special comic. So to me a termination clause is simply consistent with the stated ideals and goals of the program announcement.

[ck_tapastic]

Tapas should do everyone a favor and automatically write in a termination clause. After 5 years of the IP going "out of print" which to us would be defined as sales under a certain amount of money, e.g. $300/mo, the IP reverts to the creator. If the project fails to "earn out" then the winner here will be the artist and if historical statistics prove true, the majority of the winners from this will be the artists.

Good suggestion! Well noted.

[michaelson]

Is this a full time position, part time, freelance, independent contractor....? Probably independent, which means no benefits (hello health insurance), but that workload is more than what would allow for a full time position on the side.

Independent contractor, but we are looking to build long lasting relationships with those that are brought on board and transition them to full time employment if everything works out. Of course, this depends on a variety of factors.

All Kyuubey memes aside, is there a chance we could see a sample contract that a creator would be expected to sign if they were accepted into the program?

Unfortunately, we do not publicly disclose our contracts. We do work with all of our contracted creators and their respective legal council to make sure that all parties are comfortable with the terms.

What if .. . you're a creator who wants to submit their work for consideration for a graphic novel or comic series?

This is primarily for comic creators, but we'll consider graphic novel or comic series proposals in the future.

[GoldenPlume]

Just because creators are a risk, doesn't mean they aren't worth more then stipends and half an IP.

If the stipend is $1/panel...

If the stipend is $100/panel...

Since the amount of money Tapas is putting forth up front is undisclosed, it makes it pretty hard to comment beyond the fact that publishing is high risk. Assuming that Tapas is paying a fair amount, then what they are offering is a fair deal. What's a fair amount? What is fair is what both parties agree upon as being fair.

We can tell you that our experience with artist rates are all over the board. We had an artist out of the UK quote us $3,200 for a cover. Multiple US artists routinely quote $400 to $600 page. That's around $40-60/hr plus half of the net if an artist does a 10 hour page and nothing else? (There's nothing here so far that says an artist has to market/promote their title. It's assumed that Tapas will be doing all of that which is more they are paying into the arrangement.) The general market can't afford to support paying every single comic book artist at those rates, especially new IP and new creators. Otherwise everyone would be drawing stick figures for $40-60/hour.

We're not saying that artists can't ask these rates and if they can find a publisher willing to pay them plus 50% net, wow great for them!

What is our concern is how the negative posters just automatically assume Tapas is going to screw over the artists without even knowing any of the details. Tapas isn't posting their rates and rightfully so. Pay should be commensurate with talent and experience.

We never argue pay with an artist. They tell us what they want for the project and we either continue discussions or move on. We have a general idea of what we think a project can sell for and if we can't get an artist within the budget then we either keep looking or scrap the project. It's a global marketplace. It's up for each artist to figure out what they want to be paid and if they can get enough work being paid that amount. If artists don't like Tapas' terms they don't have to accept them.

Tapas shouldn't screw anyone over but they shouldn't bankrupt themselves either.

but it would be nice for applicants to know what the minimum they can expect might be

Agreed. It would save everyone a lot of time.

It'd be pretty great if we could... y'know, see a sample contract.

We wouldn't expect Tapas to produce a sample contract. Given how some creators can behave, they'd likely misconstrue it as legal advice and get into a pickle from it, and then blame Tapas. Even worse, some bad actors would take the contract, change a few words, and use it to flog Tapas on social media.

Out of curiosity, @GoldenPlume--- you're a premium creator, right?

No, we're not a premium creator. In fact all of our submissions to date have been rejected.

We do a lot of gratis marketing for Tapas and receive nothing in return (we paid for all the publicity for the Giveaway we did last month). We do this because we believe in the platform and want to see creators benefit from there being just more than LINE Webtoons and Hiveworks in the marketplace. We wish others would do the same rather than assuming the worst about the company.

Tapas never did answer important questions from a few months ago

We wish that they did respond to it better, but given how they've been assaulted on social media, they probably decided it was better to take no action than try to defend themselves and drag the drama out.

[janejpaik]

Did anyone get an email response yet? I sent my email to them.

[Down_the_Rabbithole]

I got a thank you note if that's what you meant.

[respheal]

Independent contractor, but we are looking to build long lasting relationships with those that are brought on board and transition them to full time employment if everything works out. Of course, this depends on a variety of factors.

Thanks for the response! This was my main question on this. The stipend negotiations is between Tapas and the chosen creator. Tapas is successful enough that they'll certainly be able to afford and offer a fair rate My napkin math is a guesstimate and, as Plume says, it's up to the creator to determine how much their skills are worth (I will comment, however, that undervaluing skills is pretty endemic amoung artists).

The general market can't afford to support paying every single comic book artist at those rates, especially new IP and new creators

There's a reason fair rates is a range rather than a single price, to account for varying skill and complexity levels. Paying an entry-level artist 400-600/page would be...holy smokes nice, but insane, and I don't think anyone is asking for that. Fair rates means fair for the artist and the hiring company.

It's unreasonable to ask Tapas to pay more than they've budgeted for this venture. They can hire as many applicants as they have the budget to fairly pay those applicants. It's be senseless for them to hire a single artist if they can't afford to pay that artist a fair rate, and it'd be unfair to artists if they hire too many and have to split the budget down to unfair rates. The whole idea is making sure it's fair for everyone--creators and Tapas. If this succeeds as a good thing for all parties, that would be amazing and wonderful and I wish Tapas and whoever they hire the best of luck.

[modrawmanga]

We can tell you that our experience with artist rates are all over the board.

for these reasons: skills, experience, speed
and last but not least, where you live (western first world country artist usually charge more than some third world country artist because standard of living are different)

[LordVincent]

western first world country artist usually charge more than some third world country artist because standard of living are different

Standard of living is not the only thing that affects hiring prices and commission prices.

As a swedish person, I pay 33% in taxes (as long as the wage is within a certain bracket. If you are a high income individual, there is a higher extra tax on any income that exceeds the "limit" for regular taxation. Don't get confused, though, that extra tax does not apply to the income below the limit so there is never a situation where someone gets LESS post tax by having a higher wage).

And that's just if I am hired by a company outside europe (i cannot advice anyone on companies within europe as they have never been on the map for me). If a private person in the US wanted to commission me, I would also have to pay another 25% in service tax.

So if anyone ever attempts to commission a scandinavian and you think our rates are high, keep this in mind.

Oh and, sidenote, that tax may sound torturous to you americans, but we get good shit for it. Mostly free healthcare, free mandatory school until age 15 and after that mostly free or very inexpensive studies (no ridiculously high college tuition fees), good welfare, good parental support and tons of parental leave to stay home with the kids... The list is long

[starbeams]

You wrote 1 season. Does that mean we should submit a story that is only the length of one season, or can we submit a story that is multiple seasons long? Are you looking for longtime projects?

[kabocha]

No, we're not a premium creator. In fact all of our submissions to date have been rejected.

We do a lot of gratis marketing for Tapas and receive nothing in return (we paid for all the publicity for the Giveaway we did last month). We do this because we believe in the platform and want to see creators benefit from there being just more than LINE Webtoons and Hiveworks in the marketplace. We wish others would do the same rather than assuming the worst about the company.

Ah, okay! That clears up a lot. Thank you kindly for the clarification -- and sorry to have made the error.

Given how some creators can behave, they'd likely misconstrue it as legal advice and get into a pickle from it, and then blame Tapas. Even worse, some bad actors would take the contract, change a few words, and use it to flog Tapas on social media.

I would sincerely hope they wouldn't, but... Welp. It is what it is. But on the other hand -- I think Tapas really could use some better PR management to help smooth it out.

Unfortunately, we do not publicly disclose our contracts. We do work with all of our contracted creators and their respective legal council to make sure that all parties are comfortable with the terms.

Makes sense, but hey, doesn't ever hurt to ask.

In any case, like @respheal said, it'll be interesting to see how this goes. I sincerely hope it is a runaway success for all involved.

[bilvyy]

Watching everyone losing their minds over wanting sample contracts and solid numbers when it can't be that simple - There's no fault or inconvenience in submitting your application and seeing what Tapas has to offer you privately. If you're so intent on finding out numbers and knowing more, maybe just apply? You're not going to be locked into anything until you sign that contract, and if you're unhappy with the terms, nobody is forcing you to join.

[ck_tapastic]

nobody is forcing you to join.

[Elm]

nobody is forcing you to join.

Agreed.
Also, all this number crunching, but there is no guarantee one would be accepted. ^^;; If you have a problem with the imaginary numbers, perhaps consider the fact that when you apply, it's negotiated on your rates. If they're not to your liking, say no? Saying No, is always within your right.

Also, very few of us are legal experts. Maybe calm down on throwing Tapas legal suggestions and tax considerations. This isn't the sort of endeavour you take lightly, I'm sure they would have considered such things. And these are things to discuss in length, for those who do go through with the incubation.

This forum has become a real shark pool.

[sarahrebecca58]

How are ovels that are adapted to comics picked? Is it just someone who likes your work enough to adapt it?

[LordVincent]

Agreed. Also, all this number crunching, but there is no guarantee one would be accepted. ^^;; If you have a problem with the imaginary numbers, perhaps consider the fact that when you apply, it's negotiated on your rates. If they're not to your liking, say no? Saying No, is always within your right.

Also, very few of us are legal experts. Maybe calm down on throwing Tapas legal suggestions and tax considerations. This isn't the sort of endeavour you take lightly, I'm sure they would have considered such things. And these are things to discuss in length, for those who do go through with the incubation.

This forum has become a real shark pool.

Agreed. (Although the real sharkpool is on twitter, where Tapas can't even keep track of everything that's being said nor provide a proper response.) Also, expecting a company or anyone involved with them to provide contract details or samples is unrealistic. Contracts are generally to be kept between the contract holders.

I have a premium comic and a t-shirt collab with Tapas. I consider them to be a trustworthy company with good intentions, and my experiences with them have only been positive!

If you don't like the incubator program, you are not obligated to apply.
If you don't trust tapas, you are not obligated to enter an agreement with them.