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DokiDokiTsuna
Jan '19

I've heard this issue mentioned a few times in different topics: the quality of magic systems in fantasy stories.

As a nearly-exclusive fantasy writer, I've made up countless magic systems, but only just now do I realize that most stories I've read/watched don't go into them very deeply. They're just like "this is the power that does the thing, and it comes from this source, and only these people can use it...okay, got it? Now, on with the plot!"

Is that bad? ^^; What's an example of a really good magic system? I just kinda wanna know what to shoot for.

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    Jan '19

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joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Jan '19

I think most series don't go into them deeply simply because there really isn't much room to explain them a whole lot? People want to read a story, not a textbook. Sometimes leaving it at 'only these people can use magic because (something akin to a genetics equivalent)' is fair enough reason.

And sometimes people are fine with a simple explanation. Like Star Wars explains very little about the force (at least in the movies) and people just got mad when they tried to give it a deeper explanation with midichlorians.

DiegoPalacios
Jan '19

Short answer: the one that fits better the story.

Long answer:

There are hard magic systems and soft magic systems. The hard ones are explained deeply, the soft ones, not so much. (despite the name, they can be used for other kind of powers too)

A hard one fits better when magic is an important tool used to solve the problems. For example, in Fullmetal Alchemist, the law of equivalent exchange was an important plot point and affected how the world works.

A soft one has the advantage of keeping the sense of wonder in the world due to the endless posibilities. It also works for shorter and simpler stories.

And of course, there is also, anything in between. Like a mix of soft and light magic systems.

How much detail your magic system will need will depend of the kind of story you tell.

Jenny-Toons
Jan '19

I'm more for a magic system that shows more than tell.

For me, you tell the magic when you're explaining it to the protagonist when they first learn said magic. Kinda like in the way Magical Girl comics do it -- the protagonist gets their powers, and the tiny little mascot of the day explains the whys and hows.

Showing how the magic works within the story -- the limitations, the counteracts, the strengths -- is what draws me in. I wanna see how it works within the world shown to me, not get a text book lore. I should be able to figure out the backstory and reasons as the story progresses.

In the end -- as long as questions are answer and the system is consistent, I don't need a very complicated explanation.

lunaartemisasama
Jan '19

For me a good magic system is one that I can understand. If it's too complicated and really important I might drop the story because I would get lost.

In Full Metal Alchemist they always repeated the same rules so it wasn't so hard to forget. But I think it is easier if you experience with the character how the magic or abilities develop so you know how that works,

nostalgicroxas
Jan '19

Magic can also go several ways. I've seen a few instances where magic is related to science, which is generally where it can fall into the "too complicated" category. (The Irregular at Magic High really strives to merge computer science program coding as magic...)

Personally I like a mix of both, or something that's based on "all life has it, but you have to know how to tap into it, or have this thing that helps you." This is a common concept done in video games like the Tales of and Star Ocean series: The summons are beings aligned to an element, but are not it's guardians. Another instance of science attempt is from the Phantasy Star series where those who can manipulate the world around them are "photoners" specifically, and those that lack that DNA just flat out cannot.
Another instance of this "life is magic" is in Chrono Cross, where if your DNA is aligned to "red" magic, then you cannot do anything but "red" magic you're entire life, and the populous are pretty healthily split among the types of magic, including holy and dark, and the magic you get is generally hereditary (siblings likely have the same type, as do parent and child).

baasinsimple
Jan '19

What's a good magic system: Something that's functional within the story and how much it is useful to the plot. The system itself has nothing to do with the level of quality of how it's presented. Looking at how I've wrote it, my magic system is a somewhat decent hard magic system, it has rules, counter-measures etc. but it was explained in one slog of an update in a very ham-fisted way. So you can have a somewhat interesting system but a bad presentation.

Hard magic for example, everyone has used FMA as an example but it's more of a mix between soft and hard, because even if has fundamental rules but there is definitely times where it feels a bit like a soft magic system and there are sometimes in the beginning of the manga where it's not used to it's fullest potential with context. Hunter X Hunter on the other hand is written by a RPG-fanatic (much like myself) named Yoshihiro Togashi who has divided things into categories, stages etc. but he has to use full chapters of exposistion dump but couldn't do things any other way because he created a system where you can rely on the rules themselves and how well a person knows those rules to come to a conclusion of the winner, yet he also made it in a way where the system has endless possibilities, so it would take a while and he's constantly on hiatus, also this comes with the caveat that he doesn't really world build outside basics.

anyway Required Reading/watching for hard magic: For something super complex, Hunter X Hunter, For something that implements it's power system perfectly with it's world, Full Metal Alchemist, Avataar the Last Airbender, World Trigger

Soft magic is much more basic, it's mystical and I like it. Doesn't really need huge rules but there's plenty more narrative pitfalls with it (like power of friendship) but it usually fits more with the themes of the story.

Bad Example: Fairy Tail

Required Reading/watching: LoTR, One Piece, Harry Potter

shazzbaa
Jan '19

I agree with @DiegoPalacios -- I think a Magic System doesn't do a lot of good unless it has a reason to exist. And that reason can be plot-relevance, rules of how magic works that will affect the characters lives and affect how the story plays out; or it can be symbolic, magic that works a certain way because it represents or pulls from something other than magic.
For a lot of folks, magic systems end up being the default -- especially if you grew up on D&D, you feel like you have to establish How Magic Works Here and Schools of Magic -- but it's really not necessary. You have to figure out WHY you're putting those elements into your story, what they add.

I like some of the thoughts from Mr. BTongue's video on magic in narrative, so I'm sharing that too; it's an interesting take that I hadn't heard too often.

TUN: Magic!
ForLackOfStars
Jan '19

I was about to link a certain pair of videos but @TheFalseVyper already did! Those are really fantastic.

Whether it's hard magic or soft magic, internal consistency is huge. If the magic system has rules, don't break them without a lot of thought and a very good reason.

GesuGesu
Jan '19

I agree that the Hunter x Hunter system is amazing. Everything in the plot so far works accordingly to the system, and even the overpowered hijinks of some (Kurapika's power) still follows the rule that Togashi has set up.

One series where the magic system is very solid is the Nasuverse (Fate series, Beyond the Boundary, Tsukihime). There are multiple standalone series that take place in the same universe and uses magic to varying degrees, but all follow the same laws. In this world, much like Fullmetal Alchemist, magic is more like a pseudoscience rather than something mystical. What I love is that because the rules are so cemented, the magic system prevents any/most sorts of Deux Ex Machina from happening, and all exceptions to the system as we know it makes sense according to the lore. People really do die when they are killed Haha.

Zaboem
Jan '19

At the extreme end, there is the background work that Shirow did for his Orion manga series. He worked out how he wanted magic to work down to the sub-atomic level. In one of his end of comic essays he explained that he did not want to tell a story in which the characters could simply do whatever they want.

On the other extreme, there is our buddy George Lucus. The Force underwent major changes in how it worked even between his script for Star Wars and the filming. In the original script, it was called "the Force of Others." He clearly wanted that to be a loose magic system in which it was implied that characters were limited by rules without limiting himself by ever explaining those rules. It was mostly other writers who fleshed it out afterward.

The bottom line is that you need a system in which you as the creator are comfortable. For Shirows, that is a highly detailed system. For Lucuses, that is a very loose system ruled more by stylistic consistency than by any specific rules.

Azifri
Jan '19

I honestly don't care if the system is explained to me as a "lecture" given by a character, as an extra chapter, or if it is shown as the story goes. If it makes sense in the context of the story, then I'm good with it. I personally enjoy when the author takes time to explain their magic system in detail. The only thing I might dislike, is when all of a sudden the characters break the rules in a forced way. If you're gonna tell me that there is a fixed system, it usually feels took much of a deux ex machina if it changes in a critical moment just to save the situation. But again, how that is told can make a big difference.
Some of my favorite systems are the ones in Hunter X Hunter and in The Witcher (the original books, not the crappy games they made later).