What’s up with artists contradicting themselves?

I find that when people give you advice on the internet it's meant for themselves, not you. So they speak the truth they're struggling with to you. But they focus on that one aspect instead of the far more reaching problem that the internet is being run by wealthy parasites who have bamboozled everyone into thinking working for free is a good thing.

So I don't think these are contradictions at all as they're all true in some way at some point. The system is designed that way.

In general, it's hella annoying when people say "I'm frustrated about X" and the response is "you're being entited, whiny etc etc". The world would be a better place if people just stopped making accusations and uncharitable assumptions about other people's intentions.

"I want this, and am frustrated about not getting it" is not the same as "I'm entitled to this, and it's your fault I'm not getting it".

Admittedly I do kind of relate to the other side, as I do sometimes feel guilt-tripped when other artists vent about not getting much engagement as I'm not great at giving meaningful engagement myself. But I NEVER accuse them of being entitled; even if they've phrased things a bit more aggressively so the cause for my feelings aren't 100% on my end, I'm a crappy communicator myself sometimes and undoubtedly came across as entitled/attacking others when I've vented, and the last thing I needed in those situations was accusations of deliberately guilt-tripping others for not giving me something I think I'm entitled to.

I do also wonder if it's less artists contradicting themselves and more there are artists with different opinions, but they are part of the same community, so it looks like the community is contradicting itself even though the individuals within it have self-consistent opinions? I have seen contradictory comments from the exact same person before myself, so artists contradicting themselves certainly exist; I'm just not sure how much of this is due to them

I know the comic you're talking about and he was tossing people like those who do nsfw art under the bus, as if they also do not work to find viewers and engagement. It's easy to see how people would get ticked off. The knee jerk reactions come from the authors vindictive bitterness, I feel that if you do not carry yourself with respect to others people will not look at you in a nice way. No one gets their freshly published book on a silver platter, unless you are a scrupulous individual hiring a team on his fathers money, and plagarizing art haha.

In the end it doesn't matter what we as comic artists think is deserved of us, for example, I feel my work is deserving too, it has been expressed to me and I believe in it. But it doesn't get much love from others as it does from me, and the disparity between creators and audience will always exist. They're diners, not chefs. And the sad fact of the matter is some guy will just order the chicken tenders because that's what he knows, not the wagyu tataki that will blow his mind.

I can empathize with the guy. It can be cruel to work hard on our craft and not even recieve one person's button click. But you'll die sooner trying to make the earth spin the other way.

Yup, I agree!

I know for me personally, I'm always looking for ways to grow my platform and gain new readers because I want more people to read my work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that! Looking to what other successful people are doing, comparing your approach and such isn't bad in my opinion.

While yes, no one is owed likes or engagement, there's nothing wrong with looking for that, and I understand people when they feel frustrated about not having that. Most people are looking for engagement from people who genuinely like their work, not under the mindset that anyone "owes" them anything.

I'd say there's nothing wrong with being motivated by engagement- hell, it motivates me to know that I'm sharing my story to people who care about my work and want to see more of it. I reckon it shouldn't be the only motivation for creating things, but I think it's fine to feel upset about it without being dogpiled on.

It's a whole complicated mess and honestly... most people have absolutely no idea what they're doing, including a lot of very popular people, but people like to give advice, whether out of a genuine desire to help others or because giving advice and putting out tutorials is a good way to appear as an "authority" on your subject and a good marketing technique... and obviously people want advice... And so you get a lot of people giving incredibly unhelpful advice.

Because there are essentially two kinds of people who build an audience in current webcomics, and chances are most of both groups will struggle to give you effective advice.

Group 1: People who simply made a fairly polished comic that's easy to read on a phone by drawing it and presenting it in a way similar to comics they like (which were optimised for mobile) and in a genre they like and it blew up... because the genre they like is something like sexy BL or Villainess Isekai. If you ask these people "how do I succeed on Tapas?" they'll just tell you "Have you tried posting on social media and updating regularly?" and make you want to scream, "NO S***, SHERLOCK, yes I tried that!" but they're seriously trying to give good advice... that's literally what worked for them, and they've never experienced trying to sell a comic that isn't perfectly on-trend or had any struggle finding where their audience is.

Group 2: People who worked their arses off learning design and marketing. They carefully planned their comic's brand, they probably do stuff a company would do like having brand colours and fonts and think about the "tone of voice" to make sure all their marketing materials stick to it. They may well post regularly and try different campaigns across multiple social media. They'll put themselves forward for every possible event and award they can. They probably planned how to make their comic look good and read well on Tapas very deliberately by doing research, agonising over their font choices and how their opening is paced. This group will technically give you good advice... but it's really not short and punchy. "Post some memes now and then!" is much more fun and immediately actionable than, "go and read some professional books on typography and branding" or "look up comp titles and research their marketing techniques and which ones got the post hits then try to reverse-engineer it"

As a group 2-er, I know I can tell people to improve their comic's typography and readability on a phone, or try to target their marketing towards fans of works with a similar vibe til I pass out and the vast majority of people won't listen... because that kind of "try hard" "sellout" attitude isn't as fun or cool as the, "make what you feel! Post funny memes about your OCs on social media sometimes!" advice that the group 1s will give... but if, like me, you're not somebody who by pure chance happens to be drawing in a perfectly on-trend style, format and genre, and if you're in a group that gets sidelined by media... you have to. It sucks! It actually really sucks and feels really fake or annoying or even selfish or greedy, but that's what's involved, just pure try-hard grind and always saying "Ooh! ME! ME!" at opportunities.

But discussing this stuff is a really easy way to tread on people's toes. Group 1 people don't want to be told they're only popular because they happened to make work in a popular style/genre/format... because they're not, they're usually making something very polished too! And Group 2 people don't want to be told their work isn't very good and they only got popular through marketing the crap out of it...because they didn't, they worked really hard to make their work entertaining and attractive! And neither group wants to be told that comics are basically a lottery and they only got popular through luck, because obviously almost any kind of comic involves a lot of hard work and it can come across very dismissive. So sometimes people who bring up these feelings just really tick off either other creators, or the people who want to stick up for other creators... and then you get the people who just want to be righteously angry...and you get a dogpile.

Yep, I feel you. I used to tell myself that it doesn't matter if I don't get engagements but the thing is, it feels like toxic positivity if I did. Like I'm giving an excuse just because I didn't get noticed. The moment you get low engagement, people will tell you that likes and comments don't matter as long as you're doing what you love. BUT at the same time, engagement is one of the things why artists do what they love. We love getting engagements from people. Yes, people are not entitled to engage with the content but artists are valid to show their frustration too.

On a side note, that's why I leave comments on content I really like as much as I can to show support to the creator. Once comment can make a difference on a person's day and motivation

I'll admit. There are times where I don't care too much about engagement but, I'm not gonna lie there are times where I do like get noticed.

I do think the hard things that most creators won't admit there is no 100% full proof way to get better engagement while creating content. It's all based on luck and what's the site's algorithm wants IMO. Add in on what the public may like or what's popular which makes engagement more confusing for creators. It really messes with your mind a bit.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a bit-- I think the reasons people tend to react negatively to these kinds of posts are as follows:

1] They do nothing to help your situation (if anything they'll make it worse). Your followers who see it will feel bad-- they'll think the little support they DO give you ultimately doesn't mean anything. People who are considering following you will feel bad-- they'll feel guilted into following you, and/or worry that you'll see them as a 'pity follower' and not care about your support either in the long run.
And people who aren't considering following you will just think you're a whiny loser (and to an extent, feel justified in ignoring you). =T

2] 'Wanting attention and not being able to get it' is seen as a capital social sin in any context, and a personal failing that no one should help you with-- you should either deal with it by yourself or quietly accept your fate. Most people are conditioned to try to shut down that kind of vulnerability on sight.

...And there you have it.

There's only one conceivable benefit to making a vent post like that-- catharsis for other artists who are in the same boat. ^^; Unfortunately, Point #2 makes that unlikely in many cases...the few artists who do approach will usually be the MOST frustrated, depressed, angry artists in the vicinity, who will take the opportunity to ALSO vent about their experiences. Add this to Points 1 and 2 and you end up creating a bonfire of ugly feelings of every kind. And Twitter algorithms will only serve to stoke the flames. ^^;;;

It's not that I think this kind of thing shouldn't be talked about, though. Tbh I think the Tumblr posts you quoted have the right idea-- the issue is with fans, right? So talk to them, tell THEM what they should do to support the creators they love.

Saying "people tend to stop creating when they feel like they're being ignored" is simply a true statement, one that people will be less likely to ridicule than, say, an extremely meme-able vent comic.
I don't mean to victim-blame (seriously though, this is probably the worst possible outcome for the poor OP ), I'm just saying...when you approach a sensitive topic, your best bet is to go straight to the people you want action from, explain the problem factually, and then tell them how they can fix it. Anything else can easily turn into a circus.

I personally am the type that mentions to others to don't Get Obsessed with engagement, mostly when they type it as a frustration thing which is not wrong we all felt that way, but at the same time we need to stay healthy, if they are the type to demand and claim it's others fault X thing then yes, I'l tell them to stop complaining because guilt tripping and complainig works to a certain extent but at the same time makes you look bad at other people's eyes... especially if you complain more than once, it's easy to be seen as an attention seeker, so it's important how to phrase things.

I try to share the advice to those two types of perople, share them what I personally do, or what other people does, the first type is willing to try while the second just expects you to tell them some kind of secret and that you swear whatever you suggest will work 100%. Be it sharing in one hundred places, be it making extra content, to engage with the public, creating memes or jokes that are trendy at the moment, etc. To try whatever is there and see what works, because nowadays with algorithms, shadow bans, competitiveness, people constantly posting, you just don't know what may pull the trick. But again, don't get obsessed because you're only going to exhaust yourself, getting obsessed is totally different from trying (Which I've noticed, some people tend to merge together and basically believe you're telling them to NOT try anything at all)

But at the same time I want to mention that I notice the following, in this time and year, people don't care about engaging too much, they don't care about typing what they think, like it used to happen back in 2014 or prior years. I can see it as well between artists, and I don't deny it, I don't interact much with fellow creators or their works either, mostly because I feel tired and the only thing I want to do is disconnect from anything comic related, not their fault.
Nowadays what seems to be the engagement is liking and then if the option is there and it's automatic, without so many steps, share/reblog/retweet. It's easier to heart react and call it a day, you don't have to think about the chapter that you just read in less than 5 minutes, you don't want to prove the author that you didn't take your time to process the information, you'll do it as you continue with your day or you're just busy or lazy, there could be so many reasons.

I think it's an issue where the polar opposites are not a great place to be, it's a nuanced situation that is entirely situational. There will be times in your life that you must get more engagement or you must stop creating, and then there are other times where you have to recognize you won't learn to level up your craft better if you don't put on the blinders and stop marketing so you can spend time creating. It's not a one size fits all for anyone.

It's also important to be honest about the current state of the industry. The chance your comic will be seen is pretty low, and most of the time that I see people very upset about their views and their follows, is because they're new to the industry, and they don't realize that their slow growth is normal. They think that everyone just starts posting and if you don't get big right out of the gate, then you have to throw everything out and delete your comic.

Which sounds like an exaggeration but I see kids do that all the time! I once saw a video on youtube where someone was like "If you don't get 2000 followers within a few months you won't get promoted on Webtoon, so delete and start over" and kids were linking it asking "Oh, is this true?" because they don't know better and we had to say "not in any universe.".

But it is a problem when we try and lay blame on either the audience or the author. There's no blame there, it's entirely on the services we are using which push us into putting all this emphasis on follower count when like--what's the point of it? Like do I get ad revenue from follower count? Yes I get like 2 cents. Do I get sponsorships from follower count? No, I'm an artist. Do my followers even see all of my posts? Nope, because of the mysterious algorithm that is constantly changing, purposefully, so we never find out how it works. Saw an interesting video a marketing professional said about tik tok that mentioned that our feeds have so much sponsered content, that it probably won't matter in the future if you follow anyone at all. A wild thought, but I can see it.

And, when we "do things for the love" entirely, then we put ourselves in a position where we can be easily taken advantage of. Yet, I think you should do something because you love it, just make sure to set your boundaries so you don't overdo it and leave people with this expectation that you are some sort of free art machine. Again, the polarized of any platitude is probably not great.

And like when I saw this whole discussion go down on twitter I didn't even want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. Twitter is just the worst environment for the discussion, like you mentioned.

Venting about low engagement with art,
generates more engagement than posts sharing art.

"HELP I'M STABBED AND I NEED HELP!"
"Lol put a band-aid or somethin'"

Jk. But yeah I get what you mean... although I was put in a weird situation where when I did stuff like that I.... actually followed people's advice who respond like that and now I'm.... where I am now....

I don't know if I should say "Hey, maybe these comments work" because of my OCD that makes me double down on what people say to an unhealthy degree where I work myself to the bone to get what I want. Like they're nothing comments to other people but for me it's like "OH GOD IS THAT THE PROBLEM!??! I GOTTA SPEND HOURS FIGURING THIS STUFF OUT!!!!".

I will say they are irritating and you can just... I dunno TELL them stuff you learned to give the little guy more help.

I did see the comic in question and I can understand why some people were upset by it but I also think other people totally misunderstood what it was saying.

It reminded me a bit of this meme.

image.jpeg478x598 54.4 KB

However, I have seen overtime that artists on Twitter eventually evolve into focusing more on talking about gossip, hashtag trends, giving hot takes, etc. as opposed to mainly focusing on posting their art. I noticed people will plug their art in a Tweet talking about politics that has people arguing under it. It is so bizarre. I hate Twitter.

Oh Im not the only one weirded out when people do this. like a post that's like

Unintelligible screeching into the void
"Also here's my art "

Like I get frustation but I also get the back lash, when it low key suggests popular artists are only popular cus they ""went the easy mode" NSFW art, fan art, joke art still struggle in on social media in genral especially what is promoted is less art and more... things .

Honestly Ive heard many keep saying "lets make our own social media but for artists " song and dance. But.. time and time again those sites tend to flop due to being overunned with only artists, very few causal viewers and customers. Hence big artists who want to make a living leave to twitter and instagram cus the new site can't support them, making a feed back loop of a dead site.

its a sad fact

They might be different people with different opinions, but also people are naturally irrational and contradictory

Damn it, people saying they know which comic this was is making me curious but I feel like I shouldn't ask :'D (EDIT: oh screw it, someone plz PM it to me, the curiosity's killing me, I won't go flaming on it or anything I swear XDthanke :D)

True; I guess it's just that thinking of it as 'different people with different opinions' makes me less salty XD People are naturally irrational, but I feel like a person discussing stuff in good faith would acknowledge their contradictions when pointed out to them and concede they were probably wrong about one of their opinions if they can't logically reconcile it with the other.

It makes me really salty when people want to have their cake and eat it too, and straight up gaslight you into thinking their logically inconsistent opinions are perfectly consistent so they can hold onto both